On this "Face the Nation" broadcast moderated by John Dickerson:
- David Martin and Michael Morell
- Rep. Adam Kinzinger, Republican from Illinois
- Bob Woodward and Robert Costa
- Will Hurd, former member of Congress and CIA officer
- Marie Yovanovitch, former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine
Click on right here to browse full transcripts of "Face the Nation."
JOHN DICKERSON: I am John Dickerson in Washington.
And this week on FACE THE NATION: Russia's assault on Ukraine grinds on right into a second month, with no sign of ending.
And can the January 6 Committee subpoena the spouse of a Supreme Court docket justice?
The Russian army has leveled cities and killed hundreds over the previous couple of weeks, and now pronounces a brand new part, a doable retreat from Ukraine's capital metropolis of Kyiv, the place its advances have stalled.
President Biden spent three days in Europe, rallying NATO, visiting troops and refugees, all whereas taking goal at Vladimir Putin.
(Start VT)
JOE BIDEN (President of the USA): For God's sake, this man can not stay in energy.
(Finish VT)
JOHN DICKERSON: The White Home mentioned President Biden was not saying a brand new effort to take away Putin.
However, if that was muddled, the president was clear about one factor.
(Start VT)
PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN: Do not even take into consideration transferring on one single inch of NATO territory.
(Finish VT)
JOHN DICKERSON: We'll get the most recent reporting from the area. And we are going to get evaluation from former CIA appearing Director Michael Morell and our David Martin.
We will even get perception from the previous U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Marie Yovanovitch. And we are going to speak with Will Hurd, a former CIA officer who served in Congress for six years.
Then: New textual content messages reveal how the spouse of a Supreme Court docket justice aggressively lobbied the Trump White Home to overturn the 2020 election. We'll speak to the reporters who broke the story, CBS Information' Robert Costa and "The Washington Submit"'s Bob Woodward.
And we are going to hear from Illinois Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger, a member of the committee investigating the January 6 assault on the capital.
It is all simply forward on FACE THE NATION.
Good morning, and welcome to FACE THE NATION.
President Biden touched down early this morning from his journey by way of Europe, the place he made the continued case to Western allies for help to Ukraine and sanctions towards Russia.
Nonetheless, this morning, Ukrainian President Zelenskyy accused the west of missing braveness, making one more exasperated plea for extra fighter jets and tanks.
We need to start in Lviv, Ukraine, the place Russian rockets rained down yesterday, only a few hundred miles away from the place President Biden was talking in Poland.
CBS Information overseas correspondent Imtiaz Tyab is there.
IMTIAZ TYAB: John, good morning, effectively, right here in Lviv's historic metropolis middle.
And life actually does appear to be returning again to regular. However life is something however following these Russian strikes on a gas depot simply two miles from right here. Now, virtually instantly after the assault, we might see darkish plumes of smoke rising into the sky and later realized a minimum of 5 individuals had been injured.
Now, Russia's Protection Ministry has confirmed it used long-range and cruise missiles within the assault, saying its goal was a plant getting used to restore anti-aircraft programs, radar stations and tanks.
Now, the missile strike comes lower than a day after Russian generals mentioned the Kremlin could be -- quote -- "shifting focus" from its floor offensive aimed toward Kyiv to as an alternative prioritizing what Moscow calls the liberation of the contested jap Donbass area.
And whereas it does not but look as if Vladimir Putin is altering his method to the battle on Ukraine, what's clear are the Kremlin's army miscalculations, as Ukrainian forces proceed to struggle again with an depth few anticipated.
Now, right here in Lviv, which has seen two different strikes close by in as many weeks, it has been one thing of a sanctuary for the tens of millions of Ukrainians fleeing violence.
And this Russian missile strike is inflicting severe concern that it might impression the humanitarian assist that so many Ukrainians have obtained if Russia's assaults right here in Lviv proceed -- John.
JOHN DICKERSON: Imtiaz, thanks.
CBS Information overseas correspondent Debora Patta is within the Ukrainian capital of Kyiv with this report.
(Start VT)
DEBORA PATTA (voice-over): What Russia lacks in obvious army technique, it makes up for in boastful movies like this one, claiming to indicate off their cruise missiles heading to Zhytomyr, 100 miles west of Kyiv.
However for Ukrainians on the receiving finish of this fixed bombardment from the sky, it is hell on earth. The coastal metropolis of Mariupol has been decimated, diminished to twisted skeletons of metal and the hollowed-out shells of residence blocks.
Hasty burials of the useless present fleeting dignity. The 100,000 individuals nonetheless trapped there haven't any electrical energy, little or no meals and spend their nights in icy basements.
Fleeing town carries a lethal threat. Many automobiles come below fireplace.
Victoria Medinska (sp?) defied loss of life, escaping along with her household to the city of Brovary simply outdoors the capital. All she has left of their life earlier than the battle are valuable photographs and movies saved on her cellphone.
VICTORIA MEDINSKA (Ukrainian Internally Displaced Individual): The city could be very destroyed, nothing, I believe, nothing left.
DEBORA PATTA: Seven-year-old Masha (sp?) remembers the whole lot.
Have been you scared?
MASHA (7 Years Previous): Mm-hmm.
DEBORA PATTA: I am sorry.
And whereas Mariupol has borne the brunt of the Russian invasion, it isn't secure wherever. Within the north ,residents in Kharkiv brace for the worst, sandbagging beloved monuments to guard towards the bombing.
Ukrainians have put up a far more durable resistance than Russia anticipated, decided and defiant.
(Finish VT)
DEBORA PATTA: However Kharkiv has each purpose to be frightened. A nuclear analysis facility has come below fireplace. Ukraine's nuclear watchdog says the preventing makes it unattainable to evaluate the harm -- John.
JOHN DICKERSON: Debora Patta for us in Kyiv, thanks.
For an in depth breakdown of the place the struggle in Ukraine stands in the meanwhile and the place it would go subsequent, we would prefer to welcome CBS Information nationwide safety correspondent David Martin and Michael Morell, former appearing and deputy director of the CIA and a nationwide safety contributor right here at CBS.
Good morning to you each. Thanks for being right here.
MICHAEL MORELL: Good morning.
JOHN DICKERSON: David, I need to begin with you.
The place are we on this invasion on the finish of this week?
DAVID MARTIN: Properly, now we have heard what the Russian Ministry of Protection have mentioned about prioritizing Jap Ukraine.
It's important to take into account the supply there. They have not been a stellar supply of reality. However, on the bottom, they're seeing some proof that the items that -- the Russian items that had been advancing on Kyiv have began to dig into defensive positions, mainly hunker down towards all these Ukrainian counterattacks.
And, on the similar time, there's an elevated degree of bombing in Jap Ukraine. Now, that doesn't imply that Vladimir Putin has given up on taking the capital of Kyiv. What I believe it means is, they've to discover a battle plan that works.
JOHN DICKERSON: Proper. Proper.
DAVID MARTIN: Their unique battle plan of advancing on these a number of fronts, north, east and south, simply did not work.
So possibly they'll strive one entrance at a time right here. However, on the similar time that they're supposedly prioritizing, they're additionally sending in reinforcements for the primary time into Ukraine. And they're maintaining this bombardment of the cities.
Look, we started this battle by overestimating the Russians. We should not underestimate them now.
JOHN DICKERSON: Proper.
Mike, decide up on that. Stalled, possibly simply to reload?
MICHAEL MORELL: So, part one, for me, was the blitzkrieg proper to Kyiv and changing the federal government with a puppet authorities, and Ukraine turns into a vassal state. The Russians misplaced part one.
We at the moment are in part two, in my opinion. And part two is digging in defensively, as David mentioned, fortifying, so that you just shield your self from these Ukrainian assaults. They're truly laying -- the Russians are laying mines, which is a defensive maneuver.
And so they need to be in these fortifications, in order that they will lob their mortars and their rockets and their missiles at Ukrainian cities, in an try to interrupt the Ukrainian will, in order that I believe they will proceed to advance. That is what they're making an attempt to do now.
And, as David mentioned, do not underestimate them, proper?
JOHN DICKERSON: Proper.
David, is there any reassessment from the Pentagon and even the Russians that the Ukrainians have put up extra of a struggle than they prompt? As you talked about, they're digging in as a result of the Ukrainians have had these counteroffensives.
Is there any means that the NATO allies and others who're making an attempt to assist the Ukrainians can reap the benefits of this new place from the Russians?
DAVID MARTIN: Properly, to start with, I believe all people underestimated each the need and the ability of the Ukrainians.
They've taken these weapons, these anti-aircraft tank weapons, these plane weapons, and they're merely making higher use of their programs than the Russians are making of theirs. They're outclassing them on the battlefield.
However there is a second battle occurring right here, which is the assaults on the cities, what Mike talked about about making an attempt to interrupt the need of the Ukrainian individuals. And it is actually -- the end result could effectively depend upon which occurs first, whether or not the Ukrainians power the Russians right into a flat-out stall...
JOHN DICKERSON: Proper.
DAVID MARTIN: .... on the battlefield, or whether or not these bombardments break the need of the Ukrainian individuals.
JOHN DICKERSON: So, Mike, what David's suggesting right here is, it is Vladimir Putin's ache threshold. How excessive is that? Or is it the survival intuition of the Ukrainians?
So, what -- how lengthy do you suppose this takes?
MICHAEL MORELL: So, we should always not underestimate the willingness of Russia to simply accept ache, proper? They've proven over their historical past that they're keen to simply accept a number of ache to realize a victory, proper?
The Second Chechen Warfare, the fight part lasted 10 months, after which the insurgency part lasted eight years. In Syria, their assaults on cities in Syria took a very long time. In order that they're keen to take the time right here in a means that I do not suppose we perceive within the West.
JOHN DICKERSON: So, in the event that they're keen to take a very long time, give me a way of a number of the pressures that places on this coalition...
MICHAEL MORELL: Sure. Sure.
JOHN DICKERSON: ... that President Biden is making an attempt put collectively.
MICHAEL MORELL: So, all people's going through strain, proper?
So, Putin is going through the strain of financial ache at dwelling, lengthy traces, empty cabinets. It seems like Nineteen Eighties once more in Moscow. He is going through the ache of useless troopers coming dwelling. Russian moms don't love that. In order that's his ache.
The Ukrainian ache is the loss of life and destruction of their nation. The Western ache is the sanctions. They can not do enterprise with Europe. I speak to a number of firms, each U.S. firms and overseas firms. And their query to me is, when are we going to have the ability to get again to doing enterprise right here, proper? So there's that strain.
After which there's the strain of the prices to customers world wide by way of wheat costs, by way of vitality costs, proper? All people's going through strain right here.
JOHN DICKERSON: Which is why Biden's over there in Europe making an attempt to maintain issues collectively.
David, President Zelenskyy has requested for NATO assist, for assist from anyone, planes, tanks. Is he going to get it?
DAVID MARTIN: Properly, he isn't going to get the planes within the quick run.
JOHN DICKERSON: Proper.
DAVID MARTIN: And that is a -- simply mainly a risk-reward calculation that NATO has made.
They simply do not imagine that 20 Polish MiGs in an unsure state of restore are going to alter the tide of battle, so why run the chance of escalating if it isn't going to make a distinction?
Proper now, there will not be dogfights occurring over Ukraine. There are too many surface-to-air missiles for any airplane to function safely. The Russians aren't actually coming into Ukrainian airspace. They're attacking with long- vary air-launched cruise missiles from Russian territory and from Crimea.
So, the U.S., for now, is concentrated on these anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles, plus discovering some high-altitude anti-aircraft missiles, which the Ukrainians know the way to function. We might give them ours, however they do not know the way to function these.
JOHN DICKERSON: Mike, I need to ask you about President Biden's speech, through which he mentioned that Vladimir Putin can not stay in energy.
He additionally framed this battle as totalitarianism vs. freedom. What did you make of these two remarks?
MICHAEL MORELL: So, I believe his remark that Putin needed to go was an unforced error.
It makes it -- it strengthens Putin at dwelling, makes it troublesome for any home opposition to coalesce collectively. And no Russian citizen, none, needs to be informed by the chief of Russia's fundamental enemy about what their management can seem like and never.
The broader framing, I fear about as effectively. I believe we should always body this narrowly, Russia out of Ukraine, and impose a lot ache on this man that he by no means thinks about doing this once more. I believe framing it as democracy vs. autocracy drives the Chinese language nearer to the Russians, and makes it troublesome for a few of our personal allies who're autocrats to face with us.
JOHN DICKERSON: All proper, we'll have to finish it there.
Mike Morell, thanks a lot. David Martin, thanks for being with us.
We will likely be again in a second. Stick with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
JOHN DICKERSON: We go now to Illinois Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger. He is a member of the panel investigating the January 6 assault on the Capitol. And he is in Houston this morning.
Congressman, welcome.
REPRESENTATIVE ADAM KINZINGER (R-Illinois): Thanks. Good to be with you.
JOHN DICKERSON: Let's begin -- earlier than we go to the January 6 Committee, let's begin with Ukraine.
President Zelenskyy known as for extra planes and tanks from NATO, as you heard us simply talk about. He mentioned: "I've talked to the defenders of Mariupol as we speak. If solely those that have been pondering for 31 days on the way to deal with -- hand over dozens of jets and tanks had 1 % of their braveness."
You could have advocated for a no-fly zone. What's your feeling about giving planes and tanks to the Ukrainians?
REPRESENTATIVE ADAM KINZINGER: Look, I imply, I've talked to Ukrainian members of Parliament, these out advocating for what's wanted on the bottom as effectively.
And so they say they want these. I imply, we will have the Pentagon all they need say, effectively, we do not suppose they've the pilots for the MiGs. They do. They've pilots educated and ready. We will have the Pentagon say, effectively, we predict that is escalatory.
Properly, in case you do not suppose Javelins which might be killing hundreds of Russian troopers are escalatory, however then sending them an airplane, when, frankly, Ukraine has already flown some airplanes is the, like, escalatory factor, that is simply improper.
And I believe it is sending the improper message. We have now to present them the whole lot they should win this battle, as a result of we have made it clear we're not going to intervene straight. And I do not suppose we should always at this level.
JOHN DICKERSON: All proper, we'll transfer on, Congressman, to the January 6 Committee.
Bob Costa and Bob Woodward, who're each on with me just a little bit later, reported on texts to the committee this -- that the committee has from the spouse of Clarence Thomas.
And I simply need to learn little excerpts of them. They're to the White Home chief of workers, Mark Meadows, urging efforts to overthrow the election.
Ms. Thomas wrote: "Don't concede."
After which in one other she wrote: "The bulk is aware of Biden and the left is trying the best heist of our historical past."
Why are these important?
REPRESENTATIVE ADAM KINZINGER: Properly, look, I can not, as a member of the committee, affirm, deny the existence of these.
I'll let you know, although, now we have hundreds of textual content messages from a lot of individuals. We have now a number of paperwork. And we're going to, in a methodical, fact-driven means, get to the solutions right here. We'll -- we'll name in whoever we have to name in.
I believe the underside line for the committee is that this. Was there an effort to overturn the reliable election of the USA? What was January 6 in relation to that? And what's the rot in our system that led to that? And does it nonetheless exist as we speak?
You realize, with conspiracy theories, as we have seen reported, this concept of releasing the Kraken, or that the CIA attacked the DOD or was attacked by the DOD in Germany, John, like, half of the nation at one level believed a few of that stuff.
And it is a street map for the way to overturn a legitimately elected authorities. So, that is necessary. We will unravel this. And as we're seeing in Ukraine, persons are keen to die for democracy. We a minimum of should be keen to place careers on the road for a similar trigger.
JOHN DICKERSON: So, nobody's disputing the authenticity of those texts, which ends up in the query, will the committee subpoena Mrs. Thomas and query her?
REPRESENTATIVE ADAM KINZINGER: Look, I believe, once more, we need to make it possible for this is not pushed -- regardless that it is within the political realm, it isn't pushed by a political motivation, it is pushed by details.
So, in relation to any potential future calling in of Ms. Thomas, we'll - - we'll check out what the proof is and we'll decide. And also you all will know as quickly as we do.
What I do not need to do is get into speculating an excessive amount of, as a result of I believe it is crucial that now we have solutions for the American individuals in a factual means right here.
JOHN DICKERSON: You talked about rot within the system. Does the rot attain the Supreme Court docket?
REPRESENTATIVE ADAM KINZINGER: Look, once more, I am not going to say that.
I am not going to say that it does or does not. We're simply going to current the American individuals what the reply is. And the Supreme Court docket handles their very own ethics. They deal with their very own inner stuff. However what we have to do is current to the American individuals the place they have been lied to, the place they've believed lies, the place there are dangerous actors on the market, for example, which might be sympathetic to Vladimir Putin.
That sort of stuff is essential in order that, in 5 or 10 years when youngsters are studying within the historical past books about January 6, they don't seem to be shopping for into any of those conspiracies. They're getting the reality.
JOHN DICKERSON: What's improper with -- you mentioned the Supreme Court docket has its personal ethics, so we'll allow them to deal with that.
Why cannot a personal citizen ship texts, as zany as they could be, to the White Home chief of workers? What's -- what's improper with that?
REPRESENTATIVE ADAM KINZINGER: Properly, once more, we're ready the place we're not confirming or denying what's been reported by Costa and Woodward.
But when they're -- you already know, look, in any case, if a -- if a personal citizen has a dialog, in fact, now we have a freedom of speech on this nation. The query what -- for the committee is, this or any change, was there a conspiracy or an try and give you a purpose, or how shut did we get to overturning an election?
Look, we aren't, because the committee, out to throw individuals in jail. We will have prison referrals, like we do towards Mark Meadows as a result of he has denied reliable requests from Congress to return in repeatedly. In order that's in DOJ. Our job is simply to get solutions to the American individuals, after which they will resolve.
JOHN DICKERSON: Earlier than -- these texts drop off. They go away in December and January.
Given the fervour with which Mrs. Thomas was texting, do you -- are you assured that Meadows has handed over all of his texts?
REPRESENTATIVE ADAM KINZINGER: I am not assured that Meadow's handed over the whole lot in any respect. I imply, he was cooperating with us for just a little bit, after which, in an try and make Donald Trump completely happy, he stopped cooperating.
We gave him loads of house to return again to renew that. He has not. And, the truth is, he is waived govt privilege a thousand occasions by presenting us what he already has. So, no, I am not satisfied he is handed over the whole lot to us. And that is why it is within the DOJ's palms now whether or not to prosecute him for contempt.
He has contempt not only for Congress, for his outdated establishment of Congress, and thereby for the American individuals. I hope DOJ does the precise factor, and I hope we get all the knowledge that the -- not -- it isn't Congress -- that the American individuals deserve, John. The American individuals deserve these solutions.
JOHN DICKERSON: All proper, Congressman Kinzinger, thanks a lot for being with us. We'll see you once more.
And we'll be proper again with much more on FACE THE NATION. Stick with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
JOHN DICKERSON: Senators are normally grouped into two classes, workhorses, who make progress, however not headlines, and present horses, who carry out greater than produce.
In the course of the affirmation listening to of Choose Ketanji Brown Jackson, Senator Ben Sasse launched a 3rd equine class.
(Start VT)
SENATOR BEN SASSE (R-Nebraska): I believe we should always acknowledge that the jackassery we regularly see round right here is partly due to individuals mugging for short-term digital camera alternatives.
(Finish VT)
JOHN DICKERSON: However what sort of conduct suits this class? Is it questioning about an necessary challenge?
(Start VT)
SENATOR JOHN CORNYN (R-Texas): Do you agree with me that it is necessary to accommodate the sincerely held non secular beliefs of all Individuals?
(Finish VT)
JOHN DICKERSON: Is it concern in regards to the choose's file?
(Start VT)
SENATOR THOM TILLIS (R-North Carolina): There's a minimum of a degree of empathy that enters in to your remedy of a defendant that some might view as past what a few of us could be snug with.
(Finish VT)
JOHN DICKERSON: Is it interrupting?
(Start VT)
SENATOR JOSH HAWLEY (R-Missouri): So, you are not going to reply my query?
JUDGE KETANJI BROWN JACKSON (Supreme Court docket Justice Nominee): No, I've answered your query. And my reply is, I've defined...
HAWLEY: You have not answered my query. I am sitting right here asking you, and also you're declining to reply.
JUDGE KETANJI BROWN JACKSON: In that chart...
SENATOR TED CRUZ (R-Texas): OK, Choose, you mentioned that earlier than.
(Finish VT)
JOHN DICKERSON: Is it suggesting the witness is a liar?
(Start VT)
SENATOR TOM COTTON (R-Arkansas): Do you actually anticipate this committee imagine that you do not keep in mind what occurred on this Hawkins case when it got here again earlier than you?
JUDGE KETANJI BROWN JACKSON: Sure, Senator, I do anticipate you to imagine. That is my testimony.
SENATOR TOM COTTON: Properly, I do not discover it credible, Choose.
(Finish VT)
JOHN DICKERSON: Is it making issues up?
(Start VT)
SENATOR MARSHA BLACKBURN (R-Tennessee): What's your hidden agenda? Is it to let violent criminals, cop killers and youngster predators again to the streets?
(Finish VT)
JOHN DICKERSON: The class is loosely outlined as one through which the senator is impolite or acts in dangerous religion to advertise themselves or make a political level, as an alternative of actually inspecting a choose's qualifications for the bench.
For some, all the listening to would slot in this class.
Senator Cory Booker grew so exasperated, he tried to summon what had gotten misplaced within the questioning, that Jackson, whom the Senate had confirmed 3 times for earlier jobs and whose character witnesses included distinguished Republican judges, was the primary black lady to be nominated to the Supreme Court docket.
(Start VT)
SENATOR CORY BOOKER (D-New Jersey): You didn't get there due to some left-wing agenda. You did not get right here due to some darkish cash teams.
You bought right here how each black lady in America who's gotten wherever has finished, by being like Ginger Rogers mentioned: I did the whole lot Fred Astaire did, however backwards in heels.
(Finish VT)
JOHN DICKERSON: Senator Booker didn't break the fever.
The situation Senator Sasse recognized will proceed to flower, a brand new time period outlined ultimately the identical means Supreme Court docket Justice Potter Stewart famously outlined pornography: You realize it once you see it.
And we will likely be proper again.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
JOHN DICKERSON: We will likely be proper again with much more FACE THE NATION.
Stick with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
JOHN DICKERSON: Welcome again to FACE THE NATION.
We're joined now by "Washington Submit" affiliate editor Bob Woodward, and CBS chief election and marketing campaign correspondent Robert Costa. These are the reporters answerable for that scoop about Clarence Thomas' spouse's efforts to overturn the 2020 elections.
Good morning to each of you.
BOB WOODWARD (Affiliate Editor, The Washington Submit): Thanks.
ROBERT COSTA: Good morning.
JOHN DICKERSON: Glad to have you ever right here.
Bob Woodward, I am going to begin with you.
Congressman Kinzinger was not forthcoming. He barely admitted that these exist. Why are these texts so necessary?
BOB WOODWARD: Properly, as a result of they arrive after the election is over. And the overall rule in issues just like the Structure and the regulation say there's going to be one factor that occurs after the election is over, and that's the certification earlier than Congress when the vice chairman, the president of the Senate, presides.
And so that is -- I am sorry to return to this. We had been speaking earlier about Watergate. However Watergate was about tampering with the electoral course of on the entrance. Nixon and his underlings mounted an enormous sabotage and espionage marketing campaign towards the Democrats.
However that is after the election. And individuals who imagine within the Structure and the regulation would say, OK, it is over. You may go to courtroom, however you learn when -- Robert and I had been studying these texts in the beginning. It was virtually unbelievable that you'd have anyone in Ginni Thomas' place say -- quote others saying, in battle, you already know, there is no such thing as a rule. There are not any rule -- that that is warfare. Properly, it should not be.
JOHN DICKERSON: And, Bob Costa, this brings in one other department of presidency into this -- tangentially. I imply she's married to a Supreme Court docket justice. So, that is a part of -- that is -- that is the opposite factor of this as effectively.
ROBERT COSTA: What Bob Woodward and I've discovered is that this marketing campaign, spearheaded by then President Trump, that performed out within the post-election interval throughout all three branches of presidency in a minimum of tangential methods. You had Congress working with President Trump to attempt to block the certification of president -- that President-elect Biden on the time. You had the president pressuring state lawmakers. You had the partner of a Supreme Court docket justice speaking with the White Home chief of workers. And also you had the manager department doing the whole lot doable to have a authorized problem that will possibly go all the best way, as Trump mentioned, to the Supreme Court docket.
This was Trump pulling each lever of energy. And a type of levers, it seems to be, which his personal chief of workers a minimum of speaking on authorized technique with the partner of a justice.
JOHN DICKERSON: I need to keep on the Supreme Court docket challenge with you, Bob.
One in every of your books is in regards to the Supreme Court docket. Chief Justice John Roberts could be very involved about judicial independence. He wrote on the finish of final yr in his letter from the chief justice, the judiciary's energy to supervisor its inner affairs insulates the courts from inappropriate, political affect and is essential to preserving public belief.
The concept if the courtroom is seen as political, its rulings will not have the load in American life that it ought to.
BOB WOODWARD: Properly, he actually has grounds for worrying. Now, Justice Amy Coney Barrett, six months in the past, went to the McConnell Middle in Kentucky, which is the middle Mitch McConnell, the chief of the Republicans, arrange, and he or she made a outstanding speech. She mentioned, I need to show to you that we aren't a bunch of partisan hacks within the Supreme Court docket. And he or she mentioned justices -- all justices should be hyper vigilant to verify they don't seem to be letting private biases creep into their determination since justices and judges are individuals, too.
So, she made it very clear that this hypervigilance ought to be the situation through which justices function. We now have a scenario the place the spouse of a justice has gone on a campaign and has mentioned, that is warfare, don't concede. The White Home chief of workers, Mark Meadows, himself mentioned, this struggle is sweet versus evil.
JOHN DICKERSON: Sure. And you've got an occasion the place the Supreme Court docket justice was overseeing circumstances associated to January sixth, in Might (ph) once more and did not -- and did not recuse himself.
Bob Costa, I need to get your sense of those texts. Do they offer us a taste for the sorts of issues the committee has? What does this inform us in regards to the work of the January sixth committee by way of placing collectively this image of what President Trump was doing and what these appearing in his identify had been making an attempt to do to overturn the election?
ROBERT COSTA: John, your interview with Congressman Kinzinger referenced how they've Mark Meadows' textual content messages to some extent. And they're annoyed that for a minimum of the Thomas exchanges, based mostly on our reporting they do finish in late November. And the place are the textual content messages, if any, from December, or round January sixth?
However, on the similar time, it is necessary to notice that based mostly on our reporting that the Meadows' textual content messages do present, to some extent, a roadmap of kinds of a number of the issues that had been being finished by the White Home chief of workers, then President Trump throughout this post-election interval.
They've additionally finished lots of of interviews. They've hundreds of pages of paperwork from totally different people who find themselves cooperating with the committee, however they nonetheless really feel in some ways they don't have sufficient. Steven Bannon has refused to cooperate. Mark Meadows has now refused to cooperate. So the query going through that -- Congressman Kinzinger and others is, the place is the John Dean who's going to place the hand within the air and begin outlining all of those totally different sides?
JOHN DICKERSON: Do you suppose there's any John Dean round, Bob?
BOB WOODWARD: There are all the time surprises, as we discover on this.
And, keep in mind, the January sixth committee, in a submitting in California, has mentioned they've a good-faith conclusion that Trump and other people round him engaged in a full-fledged prison conspiracy to overturn the election. They rule this as prison. And in case you return 100 years to the Supreme Court docket, it was Chief Justice Taft, of all individuals, saying this -- we're not going to let individuals meddle with issues just like the certification on January sixth, which is within the regulation.
A lot is hinging on the committee's efforts. I believe Robert and I discovered they're actually working arduous. They're speaking to individuals that there's an aggressiveness and a way of increasing the universe of possible witnesses.
JOHN DICKERSON: Final 30 seconds.
ROBERT COSTA: The true take a look at goes to be, will they ask Ginni Thomas to seem first voluntarily. If they do not ask her to seem voluntarily, are they going to the complete extent they will to seek out the reality? Or will they challenge a subpoena?
The challenges right here is like several investigation, issues go in several instructions. Will you pursue all leads or not?
JOHN DICKERSON: And Ginni Thomas, it isn't nearly what she could have mentioned, however what she was on the listening finish of. I imply she has materials that she will be able to present about what Mark Meadows was saying and others she was speaking to.
ROBERT COSTA: We simply do not have the complete image at this level about her relationship with Justice Thomas and his information of her exchanges with the chief of workers.
JOHN DICKERSON: Properly, now we have just a little bit extra of the image due to the 2 of you. So, thanks a lot to each of you for being right here.
And we'll be again in a second.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
JOHN DICKERSON: We're joined now by Will Hurd. He is a former Republican congressman from Texas, a former CIA officer, and now the writer of "American Reboot."
Congressman, welcome.
WILL HURD (Former Congressman, R-Texas): Hey, it is a pleasure to be on.
JOHN DICKERSON: The e book begins with a really thrilling -- I will not spoil it -- however second in your CIA profession, so I need to use that intelligence to speak about intelligence.
What does your intelligence background let you know about what's taking place in Ukraine proper now?
WILL HURD: Look, proper now, it tells me that -- one thing I realized in these -- virtually decade as an undercover officer the place I used to be answerable for recruiting spies and stealing secrets and techniques, in relation to our overseas coverage, we wish our buddies to like us and our adversaries to worry us.
And once you use that as a metric on taking a look at what's taking place in Ukraine, our allies, President Zelenskyy, is asking us to do extra. Our adversaries, our enemies, Vladimir Putin, is launching cruise missiles into the western a part of the Ukraine as a result of he is not afraid that we'll reply. We should be doing extra. And I believe that -- as a result of we may also help stop an unbelievable lack of life.
JOHN DICKERSON: Shortly, doing extra that means what?
WILL HURD: Look, I believe we ought to be giving them as a lot weaponry as we will. What -- what -- we do not know -- within the earlier phase you talked about, is 20 MiGs going to be sufficient to do something? Properly, and all people underestimated the Ukrainians earlier than this occurred. Who is aware of what they are going to have the ability to do with these sorts of instruments? And now we have to be ready to assist them stop important lack of life.
JOHN DICKERSON: And the opposite piece of your experience I need to faucet is cyber. You write about it within the e book. President Biden, this week, mentioned to American enterprise leaders, watch out, harden your targets greater than you have already got been.
What might the Russians do?
WILL HURD: Look, the Russians can do a number of issues. They might impression water remedy crops. We have already seen that occur in the USA final summer time. They might attempt to impression our grid. We noticed in my dwelling state of Texas, the grid -- you already know, it was as a result of -- the grid went down or virtually went down due to -- due to climate points, however you'll be able to mimic that related sort of assault by way of a digital assault.
And so the world is extremely interconnected in rising issues, like synthetic intelligence goes to be the way forward for cyber safety, the place you are going to have dangerous AI versus good AI. And that is transferring at a -- at a -- at a major velocity.
JOHN DICKERSON: Why hasn't the Russian cyber assault occurred the best way individuals anticipate it?
WILL HURD: I believe the Russians will not be 10 toes tall. I believe that is one of many issues that we be taught from this. They -- they thought that this marketing campaign and this invasion of Ukraine could be going in another way. The truth that the S.F.B., which is feasible for lots of their cyber actions, they're rounding a few of them up and utilizing them as scapegoats, as why the assaults are going so poorly. So I believe they have been consumed they usually have not been in a position to get to it.
JOHN DICKERSON: All proper, let's flip the wheel now and discuss your e book.
One of many arguments you make in your e book is that the Republican Get together wants to achieve out to these parts of the citizens that have not historically been Republicans. So with that in thoughts, as you watched the affirmation hearings of Choose Jackson this week, how do you suppose the Republican Get together fared with its representatives questioning her in direction of the bigger goal of your e book?
WILL HURD: Properly, look, I believe what's -- what's -- what's -- what's loopy right here, it is a seminal second, all proper. And, sure, I disagree with the choose's judicial philosophy, however she's clearly certified. And the truth that she is, I believe, the second hottest justice ever nominated to the bench, that ought to be -- that ought to be the story, all proper, when it -- in relation to this.
After all, a handful of senators acted like jokers of their -- of their -- of their testimony and of their asking questions, just like different senators have finished in -- in different nominations for Supreme Court docket justices.
However my level within the e book is that the Republican Get together wants to start out trying like America, as a result of now we have an actual alternative. The Republicans are going to take again the Home in 2022. And we're primarily going to take again the Home due to the incompetence of the Democratic Get together. Think about that as an alternative of voting as a result of voters suppose the opposite guys are so dangerous, that they are voting for us as a result of they imagine in our concepts. We will see a few of that occur in my dwelling state in south Texas, the place you are going to see Latinos vote for Republicans in most likely file numbers.
JOHN DICKERSON: So I need to press on that principle. You are argument is actually the Republican Get together has to meet up with the place America goes, a constituency totally different than the one which they assist. And also you refer again to the Republican post-mortem after the 2012 loss.
Donald -- and in that post-mortem they mentioned, Republicans should embrace complete immigration reform, cease sending the message that we solely care basically about white voters. Donald Trump heard that and mentioned, nuts. I will run the alternative. And he gained.
And now, as you say, Republicans are able to maybe take over the Home and the Senate. That looks like a fairly robust argument towards basically your argument.
WILL HURD: Certain. Properly -- effectively, Donald Trump did win, however then he additionally misplaced. He misplaced the Home. He misplaced the Senate, proper? And so there -- there was -- there was -- there -- after which -- after which, if we have a look at 2020, Joe Biden gained and he had completely no coat tails as a result of the general public mentioned, hey, we do not like a few of these issues the Democratic Get together goes by way of.
So, sure, an excellent chunk of the Republican Get together continues to be, you already know, blindly loyal to President Trump, nevertheless it's not the tremendous majority. And that is the chance that now we have. And that is the place we should be fascinated about this in 2022, and the alternatives that now we have with a view to -- with a view to develop and enhance our electoral successes.
JOHN DICKERSON: There's a query in regards to the energy that Donald Trump has within the occasion. You say the very first thing that Republicans should do is admit that the 2020 election was legitimately determined in favor of Joe Biden. That is not the bulk place in accordance with polls amongst Republicans.
WILL HURD: Certain. However after I crisscross the nation now in selling the e book, "American Reboot," one of many issues that I would like -- individuals say, sure, let's get -- let's get past that. Let's -- let's transfer on. Joe Biden is the president, proper? Let's begin speaking in regards to the subsequent factor.
So, for me, look, I am speaking about the place we ought to be going. We're at a second the place 72 % of Individuals suppose the nation is on the improper monitor. And this isn't new. This has been occurring for a while. And what I am making an attempt to say is, we do not have to simply accept the present trajectory. There's alternative ways of doing issues. And I attempted to make use of my time from after I was within the CIA, in enterprise, and in Congress, to stipulate a special technique.
JOHN DICKERSON: All proper. Congressman Hurd, thanks a lot for being with us.
WILL HURD: Thanks.
JOHN DICKERSON: And we'll be again in a second.
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JOHN DICKERSON: We need to flip again now to the battle in Ukraine and welcome the previous U.S. ambassador to that nation, Marie Yovanovitch. She is the writer of a brand new Memoir, "Classes From the Edge."
Good morning, Ambassador.
MARIE YOVANOVITCH (Former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine): Good morning.
JOHN DICKERSON: President Biden, three days in Europe, Brussels, after which went to Poland. What did you make of that go to?
MARIE YOVANOVITCH: I believed it was a vastly necessary journey the place the president was in a position to exhibit not solely American management however western unity on this vastly necessary problem that Russia has inflicted on Ukraine, however extra broadly on the west.
JOHN DICKERSON: He talked about unity. How fragile is that unity as a result of it looks like all people is saying all the precise issues? How fragile -- is it so fragile the president should go and make a go to to maintain it collectively?
MARIE YOVANOVITCH: I believe one month in there was a symbolic impact, however there have been additionally a number of accomplishments that had been cited throughout the numerous summits. So this was NATO, nevertheless it was additionally the European Union, it was the G-7. There have been -- after which, clearly, the journey to Poland the place he met with President Duda, in addition to Ukrainian refugees, in addition to the 82nd Airborne. And, in fact, importantly, the Ukrainian protection and overseas ministers.
So, I believe lots was achieved there and a number of bulletins had been made. You realize, extra -- extra humanitarian help, the 100,000 slots for refugees, extra army teams going out to Europe, and the checklist goes on.
JOHN DICKERSON: The 100,000 refugees that Biden mentioned the -- that American would take, how necessary is that in speaking to Europeans who're the one - - I imply Poland is taking the brunt of the refugees -- how necessary is that by way of displaying that America is pulling its eight for lack of a greater time period?
MARIE YOVANOVITCH: Sure, shouldering the burden and being supportive.
I believe it is necessary, however I -- actually, my very own opinion is that it is only a begin as a result of once you've obtained as much as 10 million -- maybe the numbers are even increased this morning, 10 million displaced individuals in -- out of -- our of Ukraine, about 3.5 million in Europe, 100,000 does not start to, you already know, actually begin to method the sort of figures that we're most likely going to want to indicate.
That mentioned, although, many Ukrainian individuals aren't seeking to come to the U.S. and even to western Europe. They need to keep shut as a result of they need to return and rebuild. I imply it is actually inspiring.
JOHN DICKERSON: You could have contacts there.
MARIE YOVANOVITCH: I do.
JOHN DICKERSON: You lived there. Inform me what you are listening to from inside Ukraine.
MARIE YOVANOVITCH: Properly, they're -- you already know, they're sort of encouraging me, you already know, after I specific considerations and fear. They're saying, don't fret, we have got this. We're going to -- we're going to carry on preventing. And they're. And so they're asking for our assist. And so, only in the near past, I obtained an e-mail from certainly one of my former bodyguards who needed -- he mentioned, you already know, Madam Ambassador, you already know I might by no means ask for myself, however I actually -- I want gear for my staff. I want, you already know, medical kits. I want physique armor. I want boots. And so I attempted to hook him up with some individuals who might present that.
JOHN DICKERSON: How do they learn the statements by President Biden and different Individuals who say, we're with you, we're with you, we're with you, besides to the border?
MARIE YOVANOVITCH: Sure. Properly, you'll be able to think about that on the one hand maybe at a really excessive degree they perceive that now we have Article 5 obligations below the NATO treaty. However, alternatively, they need that we'd do extra.
I believe we're doing lots, however I believe we have to carry on back-filling in relation to safety help as a result of the Ukrainians are utilizing the whole lot that we and different international locations are offering, however we have to carry on backfilling it as a result of it is getting used.
JOHN DICKERSON: As a profession diplomat, how do you learn -- and your experience isn't just Ukraine however Russia as effectively -- how do you learn this Donbas transfer from the Russians, the concept the general public assertion is they'll concentrate on Donbas.
Does that have an impact by way of diplomacy. In different phrases, might some international locations say, OK, effectively, it isn't fairly, however we'll give them Donbas simply so we may be finished with this battle.
MARIE YOVANOVITCH: Sure, I believe -- so, maybe, however I believe that what we have realized over the past month and a half, or a number of months, if not the final 20 years, is that we won't all the time belief what the Russians are saying. So, they made that assertion, after which a day or so later they attacked Lviv, within the west -- far west of Ukraine, very distant from the Donbas.
JOHN DICKERSON: Proper.
MARIE YOVANOVITCH: So I believe we have to wait and see.
JOHN DICKERSON: There's an extremely prescient second in your e book once you discuss U.S. not likely studying Vladimir Putin proper. And you are expecting, that is earlier than any of this occurred, quote, we are going to sometime, possibly quickly, discover ourselves in a severe confrontation, in a context not of our selecting and to not our benefit.
So, constructing on that platform, how is the interpretation -- the west's interpretation or America's interpretation of Putin -- how -- are we getting him proper at this second and the way ought to we take into consideration the best way he sees issues?
MARIE YOVANOVITCH: Sure. You realize, that's the query in the meanwhile, is not it? And I believe it is arduous to know. It was all the time arduous to know. However particularly now after COVID and the isolation that he finds himself in, with only a very small group of advisors, individuals who have been with him, you already know, since KGB, you already know, Saint Petersburg days. And there is simply not -- not lots we learn about what sort of recommendation he is getting or what he is aware of.
However I do suppose that Putin is a person who solely understands energy. And so when -- you already know, proper now the Biden administration is making an attempt to navigate this very slim lane of supporting Ukraine on the one hand, standing up for our values and our pursuits, but in addition doing the utmost to not increase the battle.
And once we have a look at that as a optimistic factor, that that is restrained and optimistic, I believe typically maybe Vladimir Putin seems at it as an indication of weak point.
And so, once more, it is a very troublesome lane to navigate. And proper now I believe the Biden administration's doing a fairly good job of it. However, clearly, it requires fixed calibration and re-calibration by way of what is going on on, on the bottom.
JOHN DICKERSON: I need to get to one thing you wrote about in your e book. You talked about chauvinism on the State Division, how there have been no feminine function fashions. This week Madeleine Albright, the primary feminine secretary of state, died. You served below her.
MARIE YOVANOVITCH: Sure.
JOHN DICKERSON: Inform me about that have and the way necessary it was to have a girl in that function.
MARIE YOVANOVITCH: Properly, she -- you already know, she broke that cup ceiling. And after you have one, you are going to have one other one. And he or she was a task mannequin, I believe, for many people. I used to be very junior when she was secretary of state. However she was a pioneer as the primary lady secretary of state. She was -- as an immigrant to this nation from, the truth is, I believe a refugee from jap Europe, war-torn jap Europe, she was a powerful voice for democracy and human rights and for Ukraine. And so I obtained to know her just a bit bit, it was a privilege, when she visited Ukraine whereas I used to be there as ambassador. And he or she, you already know, very kindly took trip to talk with me and supply recommendation and encouragement.
JOHN DICKERSON: All proper, Marie Yovanovitch. Ambassador, thanks a lot for being with us.
MARIE YOVANOVITCH: Thanks.
JOHN DICKERSON: And we'll be proper again.
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JOHN DICKERSON: And that is it for us as we speak. Thanks for watching. Margaret Brennan returns subsequent week on FACE THE NATION.
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