On this "Face the Nation" broadcast, moderated by Margaret Brennan:
Rep. Daniel Goldman — (D) New York
Rep. Chris Stewart — (R) Utah
Lucius Outlaw III — Affiliate professor of regulation at Howard College Faculty of Legislation
Chris Whipple — Writer of "The Combat of His Life: Inside Joe Biden's White Home"
Larry Pfeiffer — Director of the Hayden Heart at George Mason College
Michael Morell — Former CIA deputy director, CBS Information nationwide safety contributor
Click on right here to browse full transcripts of "Face the Nation."
MARGARET BRENNAN: I am Margaret Brennan in Washington.
And this week on Face the Nation: We're simply two weeks into the brand new yr, and Washington is already swamped in scandals.
The questions engulfing the Biden administration in regards to the prime secret paperwork found late final yr and final week proceed to develop, as we realized yesterday of much more categorized pages found at his Delaware dwelling simply hours after the appointment of a particular prosecutor.
Unsurprisingly, there have been cries of hypocrisy and guarantees of subpoenas from Republicans.
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REPRESENTATIVE STEVE SCALISE (R-Louisiana): I'm wondering why the press is not asking the identical questions of him as vp taking categorized paperwork that they have been asking President Trump.
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MARGARET BRENNAN: However reporters have expressed disbelief.
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QUESTION: Labeled materials subsequent to your Corvette. What have been you considering?
JOE BIDEN (President of the US): My Corvette is in a locked storage, OK? So it isn't like they're sitting out on the road.
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MARGARET BRENNAN: And exasperation with the administration's response.
Republicans are going through their very own scandal with probably the most infamous member of the freshman class, New York's George Santos. The questions on who knew what and when about George Santos, who has admitted to falsifying his resume and is now beneath a number of legal investigations, additionally proceed to develop.
Some New York Republicans have known as for him to give up, however the social gathering management is circling the political wagons, as Santos is a desperately wanted vote within the Home.
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QUESTION: Are you going to take any motion in opposition to him at this level? Are any of those allegations acceptable to you?
REPRESENTATIVE KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-California): What are the fees in opposition to him?
QUESTION: Effectively...
(CROSSTALK)
REPRESENTATIVE KEVIN MCCARTHY: Is there a cost in opposition to him? You realize, in America in the present day, you are harmless till confirmed responsible.
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MARGARET BRENNAN: Now there are new stories that some in Republican politics knew Santos was sketchy effectively earlier than he was elected.
We'll speak with former federal prosecutor turned New York Democratic Congressman Daniel Goldman, plus Utah Republican Congressman Chris Stewart.
Lastly, a more in-depth have a look at a pattern that Martin Luther King Jr. advised Face the Nation he was involved about and the place we stand in the present day.
It is all simply forward on Face the Nation.
Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation.
The categorized paperwork controversy going through the White Home grew but once more this weekend with the information that 5 extra categorized pages have been discovered on Thursday. The investigation started again in November, when Legal professional Normal Merrick Garland assigned Chicago U.S. legal professional John Lausch to look into the invention of paperwork that included some prime secret info in a D.C. workplace as soon as utilized by Mr. Biden.
Though that discovery was six days earlier than the midterm elections, the primary time the general public heard about it was final Monday, when the White Home responded to inquiries from CBS Information.
CBS Information correspondent and Weekend Information Saturday anchor Adriana Diaz broke this story. And she or he is again in Chicago with the most recent -- Adriana.
ADRIANA DIAZ: Good morning, Margaret.
We now know of roughly 20 categorized information recovered from the place they need to not have been, an workplace at a Washington assume tank the place Mr. Biden frolicked after he was vp, Mr. Biden's storage in Wilmington, and in a room subsequent to that storage. That is the place the most recent 5 pages have been found Thursday night, extending what's grow to be a sophisticated saga.
(Start VT)
ADRIANA DIAZ (voice-over): The most recent discovery of categorized materials got here simply hours after the legal professional normal, citing extraordinary circumstances, introduced to the appointment of particular counsel Robert Hur.
MERRICK GARLAND (U.S. Legal professional Normal): This morning, President Biden's private counsel known as Mr. Lausch and acknowledged that an extra doc bearing classification markings was recognized on the president's private residence in Wilmington, Delaware.
ADRIANA DIAZ: Thursday night, particular counsel to the president Richard Sauber, who says he was chosen to show over that extra doc as a result of he has safety clearance, stated he went to the Home together with DOJ officers.
"Whereas I used to be transferring it," he stated in a press release Saturday, "5 extra pages with categorized markings have been found."
Republicans have pounced on an administration that has prided itself on transparency.
REPRESENTATIVE KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-California): They knew this has occurred to President Biden earlier than the election, however they stored it a secret from the American public?
ADRIANA DIAZ: Authorized specialists say there are some similarities, but in addition some key variations between President Biden and former President Trump, who's beneath a separate particular counsel investigation, not only for doubtlessly mishandling a whole lot of categorized paperwork discovered at his Florida residence final yr, but in addition for thwarting makes an attempt to get better these paperwork and obstructing the federal government's investigation.
In September, President Biden was important of Trump throughout an interview with 60 Minutes.
JOE BIDEN (President of the US): How that might probably occur, how one -- anybody may very well be that irresponsible. And I assumed, what knowledge was in there which will compromise sources and strategies? By that, I imply names of people that helped or et cetera. And it is simply completely irresponsible.
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ADRIANA DIAZ: The regular tempo of recent developments has many questioning, what's subsequent?
Ought to we count on extra paperwork? The brief reply is perhaps. A part of the explanation categorized information maintain turning up is that the president's private legal professionals who've been wanting by his papers haven't got the clearance to view categorized supplies. So, once they discover one thing, they cease, so somebody with clearance can take over.
Within the case of the Wilmington home, that individual discovered extra -- Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Adriana, thanks.
We're joined now by senior White Home and political correspondent Ed O'Keefe.
Ed, speak to me about transparency. Why did not the president's legal professionals or the White Home acknowledge this?
ED O'KEEFE: Effectively, look, they assume they've dealt with this by the guide, not less than from a authorized perspective. And, finally, that is what they're extra involved about.
They consider this was a mistake, that current historical past reveals, when this stuff are mistakenly discovered by individuals who had entry to categorized info they usually flip it over rapidly, it will get handled rapidly by the Justice Division, perhaps someone will get slapped on the wrist, they usually transfer on.
However the challenge with public transparency and the president not being straight with the American public is actually going to linger now and be the topic of questions, not solely within the press, however most likely from his critics on Capitol Hill.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we nonetheless do not know why there have been legal professionals looking out the workplaces on November 2, once they discovered these paperwork. And the Penn Biden Heart has not returned CBS' calls and questions on that very fundamental truth.
However fast-forward to the particular counsel. How is that this going to have an effect on the administration?
ED O'KEEFE: Effectively, within the statements that have been launched on Saturday, the White Home now says: We're not even confirming fundamental particulars anymore. You might have any, you'll be able to go to the Justice Division. They're those taking questions.
This basically ties the palms of the White Home on this matter by way of info stream out. Democrats on the surface wanting in annoyed and concern for his or her colleagues, as one in every of them stated to me, this week, they have been attempting to place lipstick on a pig. The issue is, they have been handed 50 pigs and just one stick of lipstick.
That is incoming like that they had not anticipated in any respect earlier than. And, because the White Home tries to maintain targeted on different issues, you must count on that they are going to simply maintain targeted, for instance, on the financial system, because the president did this previous week, as he'll within the coming week. They've warned now that the debt restrict showdown is coming. And that needs to be handled.
They've been attempting to speak in regards to the accomplishments within the final two years. As one Democrat put it to me, on the finish of the day, do Individuals care that the categorized info was discovered within the properties of the previous president, the present president? Perhaps. However, finally, on the finish of the day, they're most likely extra involved in regards to the fundamental value of groceries.
And so the White Home is extra more likely to attempt to maintain targeted on these issues and maintain sending it to the Justice Division. However they clearly had an issue this week with this, particularly as a result of you might have a president who made marketing campaign and day one guarantees of transparency, they usually weren't stored right here, for no matter cause. A lot of questions nonetheless to come back.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we all know you'll proceed asking them.
Ed, thanks for becoming a member of us.
We go now to Congressman Dan Goldman, a former U.S. legal professional in New York, who served because the lead counsel for the Democrats within the first impeachment trial of former President Trump. So, it's possible you'll acknowledge him.
Good morning to you, Congressman.
REPRESENTATIVE DANIEL GOLDMAN (D-New York): Good morning, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, let's begin with the appointment of the particular counsel.
I do know you have been requested final week, and also you stated you didn't assume one was vital. Given what we now know and the developments, do you continue to assume it was a mistake to nominate Hur as a particular counsel?
REPRESENTATIVE DANIEL GOLDMAN: I do not assume it was a mistake.
I do not assume any of us actually have a superb understanding of what info the legal professional normal had when he determined to nominate Mr. Hur because the particular counsel. However I do assume it goes to a extremely essential truth that's being missed right here, which is that this administration is doing issues by the guide.
There's a divide and a separation between the Division of Justice and the White Home that actually didn't exist within the final administration. And President Biden and his workforce have reached out to the Archives. They've reached out to the Division of Justice. They've performed the whole lot they'll to cooperate.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Sure.
REPRESENTATIVE DANIEL GOLDMAN: And that is in direct distinction to what former President Trump has performed, the place he has obstructed justice at each flip.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Proper. Doing issues by the guide now, however, clearly, within the dealing with of categorized materials, not by the guide, as a result of the rules are fairly clear there.
Are you able to clarify to me, for the search that we simply laid out that was occurring on the president's dwelling for the present president, his Wilmington dwelling on Thursday, why would he ship legal professionals who haven't got a safety clearance to seek for categorized materials?
REPRESENTATIVE DANIEL GOLDMAN: I am unsure. And we do not know the circumstances of that.
However, actually, the paperwork go away the vp's workplace and must be saved someplace. I do hope we are going to discover out extra details about it. However, as you see from the White Home's assertion from the private legal professional Bob Bauer's assertion, they're doing the whole lot by the guide. They take this categorized info being the place it shouldn't be -- and all of us acknowledge it shouldn't be there -- they take it very critically.
And they're abiding by the legal guidelines. They've reached out and been as cooperative as attainable. And that is a part of the explanation why they cannot communicate, is that they'd be doubtlessly interfering with an ongoing investigation, which, as soon as once more, this administration takes very critically.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, are you able to clarify, on Thursday, why a White Home legal professional, somebody who's paid by U.S. taxpayers, was the one with the safety clearance who received within the automobile and drove right down to Delaware to then decide up the place these legal professionals who did not have safety clearance left off, after which discovered the 5 categorized paperwork?
Why is it applicable for a White Home lawyer to be concerned on this private matter?
REPRESENTATIVE DANIEL GOLDMAN: Effectively, as a result of it entails categorized info, which belongs to the federal government.
And this White Home lawyer, Mr. Sauber, has safety clearance. So the private attorneys, as soon as they discovered a categorized doc...
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, that's applicable to you?
REPRESENTATIVE DANIEL GOLDMAN: ... must put it down, cease. After which the White Home counsel -- sure, after all, that is applicable.
When you might have issues of nationwide safety, it's essential to ensure that those that have clearance to assessment them are reviewing them. And, as soon as once more, we're specializing in a whole lot of the nitty-gritty particulars right here. The larger image is broad cooperation from the president, who clearly takes this very critically.
And that needs to be actually underscored right here.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You had...
REPRESENTATIVE DANIEL GOLDMAN: ... in addition to the significance of an independence of the Division of Justice.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You had an op-ed final yr in regards to the forty fifth president and the problems with categorized materials.
And also you laid out 4 elements you stated prosecutors want to have a look at, intent to distribute, clear data of significance, quantity of the fabric, and whether or not or not investigators had been lied to.
Is that the set of standards you additionally assume President Biden must be judged on?
REPRESENTATIVE DANIEL GOLDMAN: It completely is.
And I feel, in the event you undergo these standards, and each, they don't apply. We haven't any indication that President Biden knew about them. He actually has demonstrated no intent to deceive or hinder the federal government by maintaining them. And that is in direct distinction to President Trump, who refused to cooperate, who refused to adjust to a subpoena, and who finally pressured the Division of Justice to execute a search warrant to retrieve the categorized paperwork.
If you have a look at this very clearly, and also you evaluate them, there isn't any comparability. These 4 elements, I consider, apply to President Trump, and none of them apply to President Biden. And that's the place we must be centering this dialog.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I need to ask you about your first week in Congress.
One of many stuff you did was hand-deliver this ethics grievance to your fellow New Yorker Republican George Santos. He is beneath native, state, federal and worldwide investigation. You want a easy majority to maneuver forward with any type of ethics motion.
Do you might have any Republicans supporting what you are attempting to do right here?
REPRESENTATIVE DANIEL GOLDMAN: Effectively, the speaker of the Home indicated that the -- he would assist an ethics investigation.
And, in actual fact, this morning, Congressman Torres and I despatched a letter to Speaker McCarthy, Chairwoman Stefanik and the top of the Congressional Management Fund, Kevin McCarthy's tremendous PAC arm, as a result of there's actually, actually bombshell indication and reporting from "The New York Occasions" that all of them knew about Mr. Santos' lies previous to the election.
And as a part of this investigation, we're calling on them to be absolutely cooperative with the investigators, each in Congress and outdoors of Congress, to reveal precisely what they knew about Mr. Santos' lies and whether or not they have been complicit within the scheme to defraud voters.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Effectively, for people at dwelling who aren't following this in nice diploma of element, they hear Kevin McCarthy say issues like -- Speaker McCarthy say issues like, effectively, different folks have additionally stated issues that are not true they usually work in Congress.
They have a look at the truth that Senator Menendez of New Jersey has stated he is aware of of an ongoing federal probe that entails him. Plenty of Democrats have didn't disclose inventory trades, different issues like that. Why is that this case completely different? And the way is that this not simply politics? Are you able to clarify it?
REPRESENTATIVE DANIEL GOLDMAN: George -- certain.
George Santos is an entire and whole fraud. All the things that he stated about himself on the marketing campaign path, practically the whole lot, has confirmed to be a lie. His monetary disclosures are -- have clear false statements and omissions. And that is what we referred to the Ethics Committee for an investigation to unravel whether or not he broke the regulation.
Eight Republican congressmembers have known as on him to resign. This isn't like every of the opposite examples you are speaking about. This can be a scheme to defraud the voters of the Third District in New York. And this must be investigated intensively. And Mr. Santos must assume twice about whether or not he belongs in Congress.
And, extra importantly, the speaker must assume twice about whether or not Mr. Santos is match to serve in Congress.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We might be monitoring that story. Thanks very a lot, Congressman.
And we flip now to Republican Congressman Chris Stewart of Utah.
Good morning to you, sir.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART (R-Utah): Good morning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You sit on the Intelligence Committee, which has requested for extra info from the director of nationwide intelligence in regard to the Biden paperwork.
However if you have been on CNN final week, you stated you actually doubt that there is one thing that might endanger nationwide safety right here. Do you assume that is simply an overreaction to this story?
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: No, I do not.
I imply, I do assume it is unlikely that -- when President Trump had this related expertise, some within the media and others claimed, oh, he has nuclear codes, nuclear secrets and techniques. I stated on the time, I discover that terribly unlikely, and I -- unlikely.
And I feel that the identical factor could be true of this case.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Effectively, they're...
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: It is most likely not that kind of -- that kind of data.
But when I may make this level in a short time in regards to the probability of him being unaware of this, I imply, not solely am I on the Intelligence Committee. I used to be an Air Drive pilot. I flew the B-1. I've handled categorized paperwork virtually my whole life.
And you need to know, each one in every of these paperwork, they've a canopy sheet that is purple.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Sure.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: It says what the classification is and why it is categorized. Each single web page has a classification marking on it.
This is not the type of factor that you just simply sit in your desk and also you assume, oh, I forgot that they are categorized. It's extremely clear that they are categorized. And for many who assume that, effectively, the president did not understand that he had these in his possession simply is nonsense. In fact, he knew that he had them. They're so apparent.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And also you're making use of that commonplace to each circumstances right here.
CBS is reporting that there was prime secret info within the paperwork present in Biden's possession. You advised CNN that there could also be much more delicate info at increased classification than that, TS/SCI.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: Sure.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Are you aware that to be a truth? Have been you knowledgeable of that?
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: No, we do not know that but...
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: ... though it has been -- it has been reported, however it will be very, crucial.
I imply, SCI, particular compartmented info...
MARGARET BRENNAN: Sure.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: ... it limits it to a couple dozen folks in some circumstances, some circumstances, even much less.
That may be extraordinary if that was the case.
MARGARET BRENNAN: As a result of that was what we have now reported was within the Trump case, that there was TS/SCI, that classification degree.
The Workplace of the Director of Nationwide Intelligence has determined to not touch upon these issues at this level. Have they knowledgeable your committee if you would possibly get some type of replace or briefing, both on the forty fifth president or the present one?
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: Sure.
Effectively, we do know this. The director of nationwide intelligence can select to not remark to the American folks, however she will't select to not remark us. We have now requested an evaluation of those paperwork,the potential hurt that they might have triggered.
And I count on that we are going to obtain that throughout the subsequent few weeks. And we should always obtain that within the subsequent few weeks. If these paperwork have been accessible for a protracted time frame in such an open setting as a storage, for heaven's sakes -- now, I perceive the storage was locked, because the president made the purpose.
However, nonetheless, they have been accessible. It is essential for us to know the potential harm to those paperwork and these paperwork being accessible it could have triggered to the American -- and American safety.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, what do you count on to get within the subsequent few weeks? As a result of I perceive the director has not but briefed on the Trump case.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: Sure.
Once more, we count on to have an evaluation of what these paperwork have been, the classification of them, the fabric that was included in them, and potential safety breaches and the risk to nationwide safety on account of these paperwork not being secured.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
I need to transfer on to different issues, as a result of I perceive you are additionally on the Appropriations Committee.
The treasury secretary says we will hit that debt ceiling on the nineteenth and have to enter extraordinary measures to ensure the federal authorities pays payments right here.
Are you able to assure that Republicans will work with Democrats to ensure we do not set off an financial disaster?
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: Effectively, we actually need to work with them. And we hope that they are going to work with us and the president will work with us.
Look, I am not a fan of presidency shutdowns. I truthfully do not know anybody who's. It does not assist. Alternatively, I do need to make this level. It is so essential. Look, the explanation that we're coping with inflation that we're, which has been generational -- and it is value remembering it hurts the poorest amongst us. The working poor are those that are most impacted by inflation.
And the first trigger -- in actual fact, I might argue virtually the one trigger -- is authorities spending and authorities debt. And as we come up on the debt...
MARGARET BRENNAN: Effectively, it is a pile of points. It is a pile of points that we have now coated in depth on this program.
However, on this challenge coping with your work in Congress, are you able to avert having the credit score -- creditworthiness in the US known as into query...
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: Sure.
MARGARET BRENNAN: ... if -- by truly coming to an settlement to take care of this challenge...
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: Sure.
MARGARET BRENNAN: ... earlier than we get to a place of speaking a couple of authorities shutdown?
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: Sure, effectively, I feel that we are able to and we should always.
However that to complete my different level, as a result of it is truly related to your query about inflation due to authorities spending, if that is true, and it's true, then you need to perceive there might be Republicans who will say, we have to reform. We have to use this as a automobile to attempt to put some limits on our spending, on our debt and our deficits.
And I'm one in every of them. And there are numerous others who might be. So the query that you've requested now could be, are these two rules, the actual fact we have to reform and minimize our deficits and our spending...
MARGARET BRENNAN: Sure.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: ... can we reconcile that with, on the similar time, we do not need to hurt the credit score of the US authorities?
That is our aim. I feel Republicans are aligned on that. I hope the president is as effectively.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: And, hopefully, we get to settlement on that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Hopefully.
I need to ask you about George Santos, as you heard me ask your Democratic colleague.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: Sure.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Can an elected official who's beneath that many investigations be trusted as a lawmaker? Ought to he resign?
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: Effectively, it is a core query.
Look, I do not know Mr. Santos. I've by no means had an opportunity to speak with him. As you observe this, it is type of arduous...
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do it's essential to speak to him to have a solution to that query?
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: Effectively, no, I do not, which is -- as I used to be simply going to say, as you observe this, it is fairly arduous to not conclude he is a little bit of a goofball.
He clearly lied to his constituents. And to your level as effectively, it is going to be very, very tough for him to realize the belief of his colleagues. And I do not know what he'll do. I imply, the truth is, is, you'll be able to't expel a member of Congress. On the finish of the day, it truly is as much as the voters in Nassau County.
I can let you know this.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: If I have been in that scenario, I do not understand how I may proceed to serve.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Sure.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: And I had -- I suppose he must ask that very same query.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We'll proceed to ask that.
Congressman, thanks to your time this morning.
We might be again in a minute. Stick with us.
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MARGARET BRENNAN: President Biden will grow to be the primary sitting president to talk throughout a Sunday service on the Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta, the place Reverend Martin Luther King was as soon as a pastor.
King appeared on Face the Nation in Could of 1964, when he was working together with President Johnson to get the Civil Rights Act handed.
(Start VT)
QUESTION: Dr. King, in gentle of current statements of Senator Barry Goldwater and, in some circumstances, Richard Nixon, do you assume there's an actual hazard of the Republican Occasion changing into the white man social gathering on this nation?
MARTIN LUTHER KING JR. (Civil Rights Chief): I feel it is a actual hazard. And I've talked with some Negro Republicans who're very involved about this.
I see traits and developments which is able to reveal that, until the liberals of the Republican Occasion take a way more -- play a way more decisive function in management positions, it will grow to be a white man's social gathering.
And I feel this might be tragic for the Republican Occasion, in addition to tragic for the nation.
(Finish VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: As we speak, the 118th Congress is probably the most racially and ethnically numerous in U.S. historical past. And it has been trending up for the final seven Congresses.
There are a complete of 60 black members within the Home and Senate. Solely 5 are Republicans. Based on the Pew Institute, 13 p.c of Home members are black, which is on par with the black inhabitants within the U.S. for the very first time.
When Congress handed the Civil Rights Act two months after Martin Luther King spoke on Face the Nation, there have been simply 5, all Home Democrats.
We might be proper again.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: When you miss an episode of Face the Nation, you'll be able to take heed to our podcast. Discover us on Amazon Music.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Welcome again to FACE THE NATION.
And we're again now with some evaluation.
Michael Morell is a CBS nationwide safety contributor and the previous deputy director of the CIA. Lucius Outlaw is professor of regulation at Howard College. And Larry Pfeiffer is the director of the Hayden Heart right here in Washington and a former White Home official.
Good morning to all of you.
And I am hoping you'll be able to form of give us a couple of backside traces on what's a growing story right here.
Larry, I need to begin with you since you ran the White Home scenario room as its senior director, so you know the way the present president, when he was vp, interacted with categorized materials.
Simply blanket assertion, anybody who retains paperwork marked prime secret of their private possession would face a excessive diploma of scrutiny. When is it a legal act?
LARRY PFEIFFER (Director, Hayden Heart for Intelligence Coverage and Worldwide Safety): It turns into a legal act, I feel, when there's intention to take away the paperwork to a location. In my expertise, 32 years within the intel neighborhood, time on the White Home, you recognize, accidents occur. These are paper paperwork. Individuals carry them in folders. You realize, generally they - they stroll out with them and - and - and - and they'll uncover that they've taken them. And once they uncover that they've taken them accidentally, they are going to rapidly return them or have someone return them to applicable location. And I feel that is what occurred right here.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Why do you assume that?
LARRY PFEIFFER: Effectively, simply from not less than what - what we have heard to date. It seems to be to me like someone most likely unknowingly took some blended group of papers, threw them in a field, and - after which they received shipped off to the residence. I feel we heard that a few of the paperwork --
MARGARET BRENNAN: You assume it is a workers downside, that in addition they have been touching this categorized info?
LARRY PFEIFFER: Oh, sure, I am - I sincerely doubt that Joe Biden himself threw this stuff in a field and - and - and shipped them off to the White Home. I am certain -- I am sorry, to his residence. I am certain that this was a workers - a workers challenge. Some - some aide who, in a rush, within the final days of the administration, was simply grabbing supplies and throwing them in a field.
I feel we even heard that it was in -- a few of this materials was in bins that included materials about his son's funeral. So, they might have seen, you recognize, son, Beau Biden funeral preparations and thought, oh, OK, let's simply put this in a field, not realizing that there have been different paperwork intermingled.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mike Morell, you have been the deputy CIA director, as - as we talked about. You know the way to take categorized materials into your private home in a safe trend. I think about not in a storage, essentially, because the president stated there. However for six years these paperwork have been in non-public possession. Is there a threat there?
MICHAEL MORELL: Margaret, there's completely a threat any time there are categorized paperwork that aren't in a managed facility. And as you stated, you recognize, there's numerous years the place these paperwork weren't dealt with correctly. So, there's completely a threat.
I consider that the intelligence neighborhood must do a harm evaluation. The Home Intelligence Committee has requested for that. They deserve it. Simply as they do within the case of former President Trump.
MARGARET BRENNAN: It is -- so, one of many questions that is arising, and, Lucius, maybe you -- Professor Outlaw, maybe you'll be able to weigh in right here. This additionally got here up with the Trump case. If it isn't the president himself packing up the categorized materials, if there are different aides, in addition they might have authorized publicity right here. We all know that a type of staffers was questioned, Kathy Chung. She at present works on the Pentagon. She was an assistant. Is someone like that right here at nice authorized threat?
LUCIUS OUTLAW (Legislation Professor, Howard College): Effectively, there's all the time going to be some threat, but it surely's actually going to come back right down to intent. Was there some type of legal intent or was this negligence and even recklessness? And I feel that is what the Division of Justice goes to actually weigh out.
And in the case of the presidents, I actually do not assume the DOJ goes to go in the direction of a legal prosecution about categorized paperwork as a result of there's so many open authorized questions on presidents and categorized paperwork and whether or not or not these legal statutes apply to presidents.
And Garland and the DOJ know that these questions will find yourself on the Supreme Courtroom they usually can don't have any confidence that in a authorized battle with Trump, and even with Biden, however largely with Trump, that they are going to be profitable in a battle in opposition to Trump on the Supreme Courtroom about govt energy and using energy by Trump.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, in each circumstances, the forty fifth president and the present one, you do not assume that there'll truly find yourself being any prosecutions?
LUCIUS OUTLAW: I do not assume there might be prosecutions with regard to legal -- about categorized info. The obstruction, that is a very completely different story. And I feel we already see indicators, that is the place the DOJ is headed by way of Trump. Once they served the warrant, the warrant utility specifies the precise legal statutes that they are investigating. Not a type of statutes has something to do with categorized supplies. Many of the statutes must do with obstruction. And I feel that is the cleanest, finest path as a result of it does not matter in the event you're a president, both you hinder otherwise you did not. You do not have presidential energy to hinder justice. So, I feel that's the best and most definitely course for the DOJ.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, Larry Pfeiffer, in the event you may weigh in right here. We heard from Dan Goldman, congressman, that he thinks it is solely applicable by way of how the White Home is dealing with this and the president's non-public attorneys. Ought to they be sending, in your view, legal professionals with no - no safety clearances to seek for categorized paperwork? After which, ought to White Home attorneys be concerned in any manner on this case?
LARRY PFEIFFER: Effectively, uncleared folks shouldn't be looking out by bins in search of categorized materials as a result of it now exposes categorized materials to someone who should not be seeing it. My understanding is that a few of these people might have beforehand had clearance, which perhaps attenuates the circumstances just a little bit.
Whether or not it is White Home legal professionals are concerned or not, I feel that is the discretion of the president as to whom, maybe, he trusts. As an intelligence skilled for 30-plus years, I feel I might have appreciated to have seen perhaps an intelligence or a safety skilled going and doing these searches. However, you recognize, it's what it's at this level.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mike Morell, you recognize, when this challenge got here to the forefront with former President Trump, one of many defenses of him was, effectively, there's over classification and, due to this fact, perhaps these paperwork aren't that delicate. After which, after all, information businesses, together with CBS, reported that many of those -- a whole lot of paperwork truly have been very delicate.
However what's your view right here? Is there a broader challenge that two fairly vital males have had this degree of challenge dealing with categorized info?
MICHAEL MORELL: Margaret, I feel there's a broader challenge, but it surely's not over classification. I labored on the CIA for 33 years. I didn't see info categorized to a degree the place - the place I questioned whether or not that was applicable or not.
I feel the broader challenge is now we have now two circumstances of former White Homes as they pack as much as go away mishandling categorized info. So, we have now a authorized assessment right here by the particular counsel. We'll have a harm evaluation on these paperwork by the intelligence neighborhood. I feel we'd like a separate, bipartisan activity power that appears at how White Homes deal with categorized info all through an administration, however significantly on the finish. And I feel they should make suggestions going ahead in order that these paperwork are dealt with with a lot higher rigor.
MARGARET BRENNAN: A lot higher rigor. What does that imply, harsher penalties?
MICHAEL MORELL: No, I feel it signifies that a particular group of people, maybe from the -- partly from the intelligence neighborhood, but in addition from the Nationwide Safety Council, have to undergo each field that leaves the White Home on the finish of an administration to ensure there aren't categorized paperwork in it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Professor, you recognize, a few of the critics, and definitely a part of the political framing of that is the dearth of transparency with the general public, which we talked about with Ed O'Keefe earlier.
It was CBS Information that broke this story. After which the federal government acknowledged it. Is that applicable? Do you assume there's something legally to again up the White Home argument that they only could not say something in any respect?
LUCIUS OUTLAW: Proper. I imply there is a political query and a authorized query. I am not going to -
MARGARET BRENNAN: I am asking on the authorized -
LUCIUS OUTLAW: On the authorized facet, no, it - what issues -
MARGARET BRENNAN: They might have.
LUCIUS OUTLAW: They - they may have with the general public. What issues most legally is, what did they convey and when to the correct authorities authorities? Was there a delay there? Was there an try to impede any type of investigation? That's what issues legally.
Now, what they are saying within the public might make clear intent if there's another prices, however legally I do not assume that places them in any jeopardy that they selected to attend to inform the general public one thing they already advised the correct authorities officers.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I ask you that as a result of we regularly hear on the White Home podium, that is about course of. We could not go outdoors of the method as a result of it may impede an ongoing investigation.
LUCIUS OUTLAW: Proper. They usually -- two issues could be true. One, they do not need to impede an investigation, but in addition they do not need to impression or negatively impression themselves politically or midterms or something of that nature.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Proper.
LUCIUS OUTLAW: Two issues could be true.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Proper. Two issues could be true, completely. It's Washington. There's a whole lot of grey and there's a lot of nuance.
However, Larry Pfeiffer, within the case of Trump, it was greater than 300 pages of - of categorized info. As we talked about, increased ranges at -- and a few sensitivity, extended authorized forwards and backwards. However to what diploma does that matter versus that query of intent? You realize, you are giving the president the good thing about the doubt that this was an accident. The previous president was accused of - of doing many issues doubtlessly with this info.
LARRY PFEIFFER: Effectively, I feel the amount of the fabric may truly recommend intent. I imply this was 300 categorized paperwork amongst 11,000 different paperwork that have been taken from the White Home. That - that simply does not occur accidentally. That had -- there needs to be some intent there.
Now, I -- when this story first broke, I used to be one who truly was considerably keen to provide some good thing about the doubt as a result of I've seen these accidents occur up to now. However as that story unfolded, it grew to become fairly clear that -- and given the obstruction, given the reluctance to cooperate, it suggests there could also be, you recognize, extra legal points at play with the Trump scenario.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And, Mike Morell, we talked about this as effectively, that the dearth of readability in some methods, by way of the flexibility to declassified info. I have been speaking in current days to legal professionals, too, about when does the vp get to declassify versus a president.
In your view, does there must be extra form of readability on what a president can declassify and when?
MICHAEL MORELL: So, a president can declassify virtually something. Not the whole lot. However virtually something that is been categorized by the chief department. The vp doesn't have that authority. He is not claiming that on this case.
I simply need to return, Margaret, to - to what you stated on the very starting. In each of those circumstances, we have now some top-secret paperwork. That signifies that those that categorized these paperwork consider that in the event that they get into the improper palms there may very well be exceptionally grave harm to nationwide safety. So, we have now to remain targeted on this by way of - of those particular person circumstances, however how will we forestall this from occurring going ahead?
MARGARET BRENNAN: All proper, Mike Morell, thanks to your evaluation.
Professor, Larry, thanks as effectively for becoming a member of us.
LARRY PFEIFFER: Thanks.
LUCIUS OUTLAW: Thanks.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We might be proper again.
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MARGARET BRENNAN: We're joined now by Chris Whipple, writer of a brand new guide in regards to the first two years of the Biden administration. It is known as "The Combat of His Life: Inside Joe Biden's White Home."
Good morning to you.
CHRIS WHIPPLE (Writer, "The Combat of His Life"): Good to be right here.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And also you spent a whole lot of time engaged on this guide over the previous two years. And also you met a whole lot of these characters who're so near Joe Biden, the person and now the president. One in every of them, Bob Bauer, who's now the president's legal professional in regard to this story we have been speaking about for a lot of the present with categorized paperwork. He additionally occurs to be married to one of many president's closest advisers.
What do you make of how that is - is taking part in out? And why is Bauer the person to defend him right here?
CHRIS WHIPPLE: Effectively, let me come again to Bob Bauer in a second.
However I feel that it is a actual downside as a result of there's simply this fixed drip, drip, drip of data that comes out in regards to the paperwork. And it is shocking, to some extent, as a result of I spent two years speaking to virtually all of Joe Biden's inside circle. And often they are much more proficient at dealing with these crises. I can let you know, that is probably the most battened down, disciplined, leak-proof White Home in years, as I feel you recognize. So it is - so it is just a little bit shocking. However I feel - and you'll sympathize once they say that, look, something we are saying may very well be contradicted later. We will not get forward of the method. However they actually need to boost their recreation right here, I feel, as a result of this actually goes to the center of Joe Biden's best asset, arguably, which is belief. I imply perhaps not for a 30 p.c to 40 p.c of the American folks, however for Democrats and independents. And that is actually at stake right here.
Bob Bauer is a - is an enchanting alternative to do that. He is - he is a really brilliant man. I've interviewed him for the guide. He tells some nice tales in it in regards to the transition. And I feel that Bauer is a - is a really good lawyer and really cautious. He is not going to need the White Home to get on the market and speak loads about what is going on on. And as you famous, he is - he is married to one in every of Joe Biden's most influential political advisers, Anita Dunn. So, you actually must marvel what it is like round that dinner desk. If I do know Bob Bauer, he might not even be speaking to her about this.
MARGARET BRENNAN: It is a very tight-knit group across the president.
CHRIS WHIPPLE: It's.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And has been for years.
CHRIS WHIPPLE: Sure.
MARGARET BRENNAN: How did one thing like this occur?
CHRIS WHIPPLE: Effectively, you recognize, look, all people's baffled by it. And also you - and you need to marvel in the event you have been to look a few of the different presidential properties of different presidents whether or not we might be discovering the identical factor. I feel Mike Morell's proper, there's received to be a significantly better course of. It is only a sloppy course of, I feel.
However, once more, I -- substantively, I feel that is actually severe in a technique as a result of I feel that it now turns into tough, if not unattainable, to convey prices on the Mar-a-Lago paperwork case. And the explanation - the explanation I say that's as a result of it doesn't matter what anyone says about this being solely in regards to the details and the legal guidelines, it's inarguably a political determination with huge political ramifications. Jack Smith and Merrick Garland must be occupied with a jury, selecting a jury, and whether or not that jury goes to assume that what Trump did is all that egregious if paperwork maintain popping up each different day in Joe Biden's residences.
MARGARET BRENNAN: At this level in a presidency you usually see officers rotate out. I do know you spoke to Chief of Employees Ron Klain extensively. Is he staying on? And will we count on different adjustments?
CHRIS WHIPPLE: That is a extremely large query for Joe Biden. Look, he is had a - a really profitable two-year presidency, significantly - I imply the second yr has been probably the most consequential years for any president in - in trendy historical past. The primary yr was - was harder. We will discuss that. However I feel --
MARGARET BRENNAN: I assume you are speaking about Afghanistan.
CHRIS WHIPPLE: Sure, Afghanistan particularly. However I feel that Joe Biden - Joe Biden may have a really robust determination to make if Ron Klain decides to maneuver on any time quickly as a result of these are very massive footwear to fill. Ron Klain is -- arguably belongs in elite firm, James Baker, Leon Panetta, a few of the finest chiefs of workers round. So, I feel it is going to be a extremely, actually essential determination.
MARGARET BRENNAN: They did not tweet like he does. He is very lively on Twitter.
So, let's go to one thing severe right here, Afghanistan. That was an enormous black mark on the Biden administration.
CHRIS WHIPPLE: It was.
MARGARET BRENNAN: To actually have such a chaotic withdrawal on one thing they only actually did not count on to go sideways prefer it did.
CHRIS WHIPPLE: I feel - I feel it is a story of two presidencies, the primary yr and the second yr. The primary yr overshadowed by Afghanistan, regardless that he had a whole lot of accomplishments that first yr. It was chaotic, God is aware of, watching it on tv. However what I found and report in my guide is that behind the scenes there was a whole lot of drama.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Sure.
CHRIS WHIPPLE: And Tony Blinken, the secretary of state, advised me in no unsure phrases that the whole lot we did was primarily based on a fatally flawed intelligence evaluation that the Afghan authorities would final for 18 months. This was information to CIA Director Invoice Burns after I sat down with him and talked to him at size about it. He stated, look, in the event you pulled out two legs of the stool, as he put it, American forces and contractors, we -- we predicted that that might collapse in a short time.
So, Afghanistan - and -- and - and I even have this excellent story that, I imply, Joe Biden shared with me what it was like on the worst day of his presidency, what he known as the toughest of the arduous days when 13 service members have been killed by the suicide bombing in Kabul. Afterwards, Biden needed to confront -- needed to attempt to console the households of these fallen troopers. A few of them blamed him.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Sure.
CHRIS WHIPPLE: A few of them have been upset as a result of he invoked his son Beau. This was personally actually wrenching for Joe Biden. And it is a - it is a, I feel, an excellent perception into him.
MARGARET BRENNAN: It is a compelling -- it is a compelling guide. Thanks very a lot.
CHRIS WHIPPLE: Thanks a lot, Margaret.
We'll be again in a second.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Russia launched one other wave of missile assaults on Ukraine on Saturday. Explosions have been heard in Kyiv this weekend as missiles rained down close by, killing about two dozen folks in Dnipro and knocking out important infrastructure in not less than two main cities. Kyiv is asking on the west to offer them with superior air protection techniques.
Debora Patta has the most recent.
(BEGIN VT)
DEBORA PATTA (voice over): A contemporary spherical of missiles unleashed this weekend smashed right into a residential house block in Dnipro. A reminder Russian- fashion, it is a conflict declared largely on civilians.
Rescue staff paused to hear for survivors in the dead of night. Is somebody alive, they shout in unison? Among the many lifeless, youngsters. Among the many dwelling, this lady, 23-year-old Ana Stasiashvitz (ph), who survived by hiding within the lavatory of what was as soon as her seventh flooring house.
The strikes come on the week of intense fight within the east the place Ukraine is combating to carry onto Soledar. Russia claims the city is beneath its management. Ukraine disputes this, saying Moscow is attempting to grind down its forces utilizing mercenaries from the Russian paramilitary group Wagner.
They've had a whole lot of losses, Ukrainian soldier Vadim (ph) stated. They're attacking in waves and strolling over the lifeless our bodies.
Wagner insists its fighters, not the common Russian military, seized Soledar, a declare that is led to an inner turf conflict in Russia over who ought to get credit score for a victory right here.
However Vladimir Putin desperately wants a win. He is didn't take a single city since July. Wagner's chief, Russian oligarch Yevgeny Prigojine, made a triumphant go to to Soledar yesterday at hand out medals to his males. They captured it in two weeks, he bragged. They're most likely probably the most skilled military on this planet.
The reality is they're convicts recruited from prisons throughout Russia, pardoned in trade for combating on the entrance line, fueling fears that arming hardened criminals may result in extra battlefield atrocities says Ukrainian army skilled Olexander Colvalinco (ph).
Convicts don't have any ethical line to cross, he advised us. Since they arrived on the battlefield, conflict crimes have elevated.
(END VT)
DEBORA PATTA (on digicam): Allied assist stays robust with the U.Ok. changing into the primary western nation to pledge tanks to Kyiv. Different NATO members at the moment are beneath stress to comply with swimsuit.
Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Debora Patta, thanks.
Right here within the U.S., there's just a little little bit of a brilliant spot in our financial system as this December's Shopper Value Index signifies that inflation is slowing for the sixth straight month thanks, in most half, to falling vitality costs. Now, the Fed is anticipated to proceed to boost rates of interest, however given the brand new knowledge, the dimensions and tempo of these will increase stays an open query.
We'll be proper again.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: If you cannot watch FACE THE NATION stay, you'll be able to set your DVR. We're additionally accessible by our CBS and Paramount Plus apps and we're replayed on our CBS Information streaming community all through the day on Sundays.
That is it for us in the present day. Thanks all for watching. Till subsequent week, for FACE THE NATION, I am Margaret Brennan.