On this "Face the Nation" broadcast, moderated by Margaret Brennan:
- Former Deputy Lawyer Common Rod Rosenstein
- Former Vice President Mike Pence
- Democratic Rep. Zoe Lofgren of California
- Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway, co-hosts of the podcast "Pivot"
- Democratic Rep. Karen Bass
Click on right here to browse full transcripts of "Face the Nation."
MARGARET BRENNAN: I am Margaret Brennan in Washington.
And this week on Face the Nation: Change is coming to Washington, however as each events attempt to transfer previous the chaos of campaigns '20 and '22, a sure former president just isn't on board with that.
It was a seismic, however not shocking announcement.
(Start VT)
REPRESENTATIVE NANCY PELOSI (D-California): The hour has come for a brand new era to steer the Democratic Caucus.
(Finish VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: It is a altering of the guard, as Democrats transfer to the minority. That new era is youthful, extra various and untested in terms of going through a possible barrage of Republican-led investigations.
(Start VT)
REPRESENTATIVE KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-California): They only offer you one gavel with the facility and the facility of subpoena as properly, and we will use it.
(APPLAUSE)
(Finish VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: However the Republican Occasion must cope with the fallout from Lawyer Common Merrick Garland's determination to call an outdoor counsel to supervise investigations of former President Trump.
(Start VT)
MERRICK GARLAND (U.S. Lawyer Common): Appointing a particular counsel presently is the correct factor to do. The extraordinary circumstances offered right here demanded it.
(Finish VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We are going to speak with a former Trump deputy legal professional normal, Rod Rosenstein, in addition to Home Judiciary Committee Democrat Zoe Lofgren.
Plus, the previous vice chairman opens as much as us about January 6 and the large concern dividing him and the previous president.
(Start VT)
MIKE PENCE (Former Vice President of the US): The 2020 election was not stolen.
(Finish VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Lastly, we'll check out turmoil within the tech world, as Twitter teeters and crypto crashes.
Tech watchers Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway will be part of us for evaluation.
It is all simply forward on Face the Nation.
Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation.
There may be some breaking information in a single day from Colorado, as we've discovered that 5 individuals are useless and not less than 18 others have been injured in a mass capturing at Membership Q, an LGBTQ nightclub in Colorado Springs. Now, police say they do have the alleged shooter in custody, and the FBI is helping with the investigation.
We start this morning with former Deputy Lawyer Common Rod Rosenstein. He appointed Robert Mueller as particular counsel for the investigation into Russian interference within the 2016 election and to find out if there have been hyperlinks between that nation and former President Trump's marketing campaign.
And he joins us in studio.
It's good to have you ever right here, in a rare week.
ROD ROSENSTEIN (Former U.S. Deputy Lawyer Common): Good morning. Glad to be right here.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I need to get proper to it.
Because of the former president launching his marketing campaign -- the present president may additionally run for president -- the legal professional normal stated it's completely essential to have a particular counsel oversee this investigation into the labeled paperwork discovered at Mar-a-Lago and what occurred with attempting to vary the result of the 2020 election.
If you happen to have been in that outdated position you as soon as had, would you might have appointed a particular counsel?
FORMER U.S. DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL ROD ROSENSTEIN: You recognize, it is easy to second-guess from outdoors the division.
I do not know precisely what Merrick Garland is aware of, what data was out there to him. He did not say that he was required to nominate the particular counsel. He stated that he thought it was the correct factor to do. I believed, beneath the circumstances that I confronted, that the appointment of Robert Mueller was the correct factor to do with regard to the Russia investigation.
However I feel, on this case, Merrick Garland clearly made a discretionary determination. The division had been dealing with this itself for 2 years, might have continued to deal with it itself. However he believed that this might assist to advertise public confidence.
I feel it stays to be seen whether or not that is the case.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, you would not have performed this, your self?
FORMER U.S. DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL ROD ROSENSTEIN: As I stated, it is it is easy to second-guess from outdoors.
I feel my inclination, on condition that the investigation had been occurring for a while, and given the stage which they've reached, is that I in all probability wouldn't have. However I simply cannot inform from the skin.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, from the place you sit, does the appointment of a particular counsel point out not less than a willingness on Merrick Garland's half to go forward with a prosecution, or is that overreading the choice?
FORMER U.S. DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL ROD ROSENSTEIN: I feel what it signifies is that, regardless of the very fact the division has been at this for a while, virtually two years on the January 6 investigation, near a 12 months on the Mar-a-Lago investigation, that they nonetheless imagine that they've a viable potential case.
It does not imply they decided to go ahead, but it surely definitely is a sign they imagine it is a chance.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Now, one case that is been occurring longer, the investigation into Hunter Biden, which CBS has discovered the FBI has gathered enough proof to cost him with tax and gun-related crimes, and that's earlier than the U.S. legal professional in Delaware, David Weiss.
I imagine you understand him, since he was a Trump appointee. Can he independently oversee this, or do we'd like one other particular counsel?
FORMER U.S. DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL ROD ROSENSTEIN: Effectively, sure, this investigation, as you stated, has been occurring for a really very long time, which isn't good for anyone.
You recognize, it promotes conspiracy theories and suspicions. So my hope is the division will decide within the close to future about whether or not to go ahead. And, hopefully, that call can be accepted by the general public. I do imagine that the U.S. legal professional in Delaware, you understand, has the correct expertise to make that call.
So, I feel we might be assured that he'll make the correct determination in that case.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK, so not in that case.
However let me ask you concerning the content material of what's being scrutinized right here with the previous president. I do know, once you have been U.S. legal professional in Maryland, you handled people who took labeled materials, typically prime secret, SCI-level clearances, and saved it at residence.
And also you prosecuted them to the total extent of the regulation. Why ought to the president be any totally different?
FORMER U.S. DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL ROD ROSENSTEIN: Effectively, you are proper. We did have a whole lot of federal businesses in Maryland. And so we had quite a few circumstances that got here up throughout my 12 years as U.S. legal professional, each beneath President Obama and President Bush.
And we prosecuted these circumstances as a result of we believed the information justified it. Now, if the information justify a prosecution of President Trump, I feel the division will make that call. However we simply do not know from the skin.
You recognize, there are extenuating circumstances when it is the president, when there are a whole lot of staffers and attorneys concerned. And so I feel we've to attend to see how that each one shakes out.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Former Lawyer Common Barr sat with PBS, and this was proper earlier than Merrick Garland's announcement. However he stated that, to indict, the Justice Division wants to indicate Mr. Trump was consciously concerned.
Let's hear what he needed to say.
(Start VT)
WILLIAM BARR (Former U.S. Lawyer Common): I personally suppose that they in all probability have the premise for legitimately indicting the president. I do not know. I am speculating.
MARGARET HOOVER, PBS: You are speculating, sure.
FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL BARR: However -- however, given what's gone on, I feel they in all probability have the proof that might examine the field. They've the case.
(Finish VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you agree?
FORMER U.S. DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL ROD ROSENSTEIN: Effectively, I do not know.
I feel the -- Lawyer Common Barr, that's -- talked about later in that interview that he was speculating. And I feel it is -- you understand, there are a number of ranges of points that the division wants to think about, Margaret.
Primary is, is the proof enough to acquire and maintain a conviction? Quantity two is, is it an applicable use of federal assets to convey that case? And a case in opposition to a former president, clearly, can be extraordinary, would elevate distinctive considerations.
And so I might hope that Merrick Garland and his workforce can be very cautious about scrutinizing that proof, not simply checking the field, however ensuring that they are ready to face behind the choice that they make.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, once you say maintain a conviction, what do you imply by that? Does that imply wanting on the courts which can be prone to prosecute? I imply, the place would you prosecute this case, Florida or Washington, D.C.?
FORMER U.S. DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL ROD ROSENSTEIN: Effectively, it means guaranteeing that, primary, you're going to get previous a jury, that's, having the ability to persuade 12 random residents that your case proves the defendant's guilt past an inexpensive doubt, quantity two, that will probably be sustained or upheld on enchantment.
You recognize, the division typically brings circumstances during which they use novel theories that prevail in district courtroom, however are overruled on enchantment. In the event that they're to convey a case in opposition to a former president, you'll need to be sure that that they had a -- a lock-solid case they usually have been assured each of conviction and of prevailing on any enchantment.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And that there would not be some nationwide safety implication, equivalent to political violence?
FORMER U.S. DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL ROD ROSENSTEIN: Effectively, you understand, that is -- and that is a troublesome concern, Margaret, as as to if or not the legal professional normal ought to contemplate the -- the potential for public unrest in the event that they have been to convey a case in opposition to the president.
However I...
MARGARET BRENNAN: It needs to be thought-about.
FORMER U.S. DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL ROD ROSENSTEIN: I -- I feel it highlights the significance of the division guaranteeing that they've a strong case, that's, that they are going to win a conviction they usually're going to have the ability to maintain an enchantment.
The circumstances, the stakes are larger than in an extraordinary case. It's essential to be sure that, for those who convey that case, that you would be able to persuade those that it is meritorious and that you simply need to win.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Effectively, that will get on the fundamentals, the mistrust of establishment and the place we're at nowadays.
However the former president has already stated he is not going to adjust to any investigations. He stated that on Friday. So, what does this imply for the timeline? Are we working proper into the 2024 presidential marketing campaign?
FORMER U.S. DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL ROD ROSENSTEIN: I am involved about -- concerning the timing.
Clearly, the brand new particular counsel, Jack Smith, must stand up to hurry within the case. He isn't even within the U.S., so he wants to come back again and get engaged and supervise his workforce. He might have to herald further workforce members, folks he trusts to evaluation the circumstances.
After which there are different potential delays as properly. You recognize, one of many downsides of appointing a particular counsel is the potential for litigation over the validity of the appointment of the particular counsel. And that has all the time been upheld by the courts. However litigation can impose further delays.
So, I feel there is a honest probability that that is going to pull in -- properly into the marketing campaign season.
MARGARET BRENNAN: After which the query of whether or not the candidate wins or not.
Rod Rosenstein, thanks on your perception and for becoming a member of us right this moment.
FORMER U.S. DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL ROD ROSENSTEIN: Thanks.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Earlier than the appointment of a particular counsel was introduced final week, we spoke with former Vice President Mike Pence about his new guide, "So Assist Me God."
In our wide-ranging dialog, Mr. Pence particulars extensively his story, as much as and together with the January 6 assault.
(Start VT)
FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: The president's phrases and actions in and round January 6 have been reckless.
The tweet that he issued the day that I used to be within the loading dock earlier than -- beneath the US Senate endangered my household and endangered those that have been within the Capitol and was indefensible.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Why did it take you two years to speak about your anger? Weren't you incandescent with rage that your loved ones was put in danger like that?
FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: Margaret, I used to be indignant that day and plenty of days since.
However, on January 6, I've to inform you that I needed to put that apart. The president had determined to be part of the issue. I used to be decided to be part of the answer, to work with leaders in Congress, leaders on the Pentagon, leaders in regulation enforcement to do our half to complete our work beneath the Structure.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You have been calling and attempting to get the Nationwide Guard to come back in and restore order.
Did you are feeling you had to do this as a result of the commander in chief was derelict in his duties?
FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: Margaret, I did not know what the president was doing on the time. I wasn't on the White Home. I had no contact with the president or the White Home that day.
Once I spoke to the congressional leaders in our first convention name, they knowledgeable me that they have been getting combined messages from safety personnel. And I requested them in the event that they needed me to become involved. And so they did.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you suppose President Trump must be held accountable in his occasions -- within the occasions that led to January 6 and the violence of that day?
FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: Effectively, I feel everybody that perpetrated the violence on the Capitol must be held to the strictest account of the regulation.
MARGARET BRENNAN: However what about those that fed it? What about those that gave it oxygen, the lie oxygen to mislead folks?
FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: I am assured that the American folks will maintain all these accountable, on the finish of the day, and historical past can be their choose.
I imply, in -- in my guide, I -- what I've tried to do is share a candid story concerning the evolution of that controversy. The president and I've developed a ...
MARGARET BRENNAN: You do. You say the president got here to you not less than 5 instances. You lay it out intimately main as much as January 6.
And it is virtually such as you could not imagine this, since you saved telling him time and again: This isn't authorized. This isn't constitutional.
FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: I did. Many individuals did.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you look again and say, I wasn't forceful sufficient?
I imply, what might you might have performed otherwise?
FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: Effectively, I did inform the president many instances that, after he exhausted each authorized problem that the marketing campaign had each proper to pursue, that he ought to merely settle for the outcomes.
The president was listening to from a cadre of attorneys who, frankly, ought to by no means been let on the White Home grounds, not to mention within the Oval Workplace, telling him what, because the Bible says, his itching ears needed to listen to.
My hope was that, on the finish of the day, he would come round. I bear in mind, on the evening of January 4, we had a gathering with the president and a part of that authorized workforce within the Oval Workplace. The president left on the helicopter. There have been no harsh phrases between us, however he was persevering with to make his case, and I used to be persevering with to make my place clear.
However at his rally in Georgia, which I watched on tv, the president really opened up the rally by talking about me:
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
DONALD TRUMP (Former President of the US): I hope that our nice vice chairman, our nice vice chairman comes by means of for us. He is a fantastic man.
In fact, if he does not come by means of, I will not like him fairly as a lot.
(LAUGHTER)
FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: However then he paused and he stated to the gang, now -- now, one factor you understand about Mike Pence is, he all the time performs it straight.
MARGARET BRENNAN: After which he known as you the subsequent day.
FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: However I bear in mind, in that second, pondering, he is perhaps coming round.
MARGARET BRENNAN: However he wasn't.
FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: My continued hope was that, on the finish of the day, he would acknowledge what our obligation was on that day, because the presiding officer beneath the Structure to supervise the depend of the electoral vote of an election that we misplaced.
However -- but it surely was to not be.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Will you reply questions on that day earlier than Congress?
FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: Congress has no proper to my testimony.
We've a separation of powers beneath the Structure of the US. And I imagine it will set up a horrible precedent for the Congress to summon a vice chairman of the US to talk about deliberations that passed off on the White Home. And...
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, you are -- you are closing the door on that totally?
FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: I'm closing the door on that, and -- however I need to say, once more, the partisan nature of the January 6 Committee has been a disappointment to me.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The attorneys and the chief of employees to the president on the time, the -- Mark Meadows, who let these attorneys you stated had no enterprise on the White Home grounds, you suppose, no consequence, solely prosecute the individuals who really bodily went to the Capitol?
FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: There are these which can be talking in protection of those that rioted on the Capitol and created the circumstances the place lives have been misplaced.
However I imagine everybody that was rioting within the Capitol that day and perpetrating violence must be held to the strictest account of the regulation.
However I do imagine that, on the finish of the day, the American folks will maintain accountable people who permitted the circumstances round which January 6 was in a position to flourish into violence that day.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You additionally suppose the FBI executing a search warrant to take labeled materials from the previous president's residence was not the best way the Justice Division ought to have dealt with it.
However, to be clear, have been you ever personally involved about Mr. Trump's dealing with of labeled data?
FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: I do not recall ever caring concerning the president or anybody on our administration's dealing with of labeled data. I -- not less than among the many senior employees, of which I had common contact.
MARGARET BRENNAN: However, if he had, he can be prosecuted, you'll suppose.
FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: Effectively, let me say, you understand, nobody is above the regulation.
However as somebody that served on the Judiciary Committee for greater than 10 years, having oversight over the Justice Division, I simply suppose there have been many higher methods to acquire these labeled supplies from Mar-a-Lago than to execute a search warrant in opposition to a former president of the US of America, one thing that had by no means occurred in American historical past, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And by no means been prosecuted. Do you suppose that that ought to occur?
FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: Effectively, look -- properly, I -- my -- my hope is that the Justice Division will suppose very fastidiously about subsequent steps.
This can be a very divided time within the lifetime of our nation. I feel our nation must heal. However the thought of executing a search warrant in opposition to a former president of the US despatched the flawed message to the American folks and, frankly, despatched the flawed message to the broader world that appears at the US of America as the usual.
And that was my disappointment within the determination to execute a search warrant.
(Finish VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: And there can be extra of our dialog with the previous vice chairman simply forward.
However we flip now to California Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren. She serves on the Judiciary Committee and the Choose Committee investigating January 6.
Good morning to you, Congresswoman.
I need to get straight to it. Does the refusal of the vice chairman and the previous president to conform together with your investigation in any approach impede the influence or end result?
REPRESENTATIVE ZOE LOFGREN (D-California): Effectively, we want that they had are available in.
Actually, different presidents have are available in when requested by the Congress, together with Gerald Ford, Teddy Roosevelt, many others. It's virtually Thanksgiving, and the committee turns right into a pumpkin on the finish of December. So, we do not have time to litigate this.
However I feel they've cheated historical past, and they need to have performed in any other case.
We, then again, have obtained substantial data from different sources. And we're within the technique of, as I am certain you understand, writing our report now.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And also you're persevering with to assemble data, as I perceive it, talking to 2 Secret Service officers lately.
What extra do you want? And are you continue to sharing that data with the Justice Division?
REPRESENTATIVE ZOE LOFGREN: Effectively, we're not sharing data with the Justice Division. We're doing our personal investigation.
Nevertheless, we anticipate, when our report is launched, to launch the entire proof that we've assembled, so the general public can see it, together with the Division of Justice.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
However you might have -- I perceive the committee has launched paperwork to the Division of Justice. Is that not the case?
REPRESENTATIVE ZOE LOFGREN: Effectively, we're not -- no, we're -- we're -- we're doing our personal investigation.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Proper.
REPRESENTATIVE ZOE LOFGREN: And inside a month, they -- the general public can have every little thing that we have discovered, all of the proof, for good or sick.
And I feel we have, as we have proven in our hearings...
MARGARET BRENNAN: Sure.
REPRESENTATIVE ZOE LOFGREN: ... made a compelling presentation that the previous president was on the middle of the hassle to overturn a duly elected election, assembled the mob, despatched it over to Congress to attempt to intervene with the peaceable switch of energy.
It is fairly stunning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Effectively, as we all know, the Justice Division has its personal investigation. And that is what led us to the legal professional normal making information just some days in the past with this particular counsel to take up the occasions surrounding January 6.
However what does placing this within the palms of a particular counsel accomplish right here? Do you suppose it really removes politics? Or does it nonetheless simply preserve it there, for the reason that legal professional normal will nonetheless have oversight of the particular counsel?
REPRESENTATIVE ZOE LOFGREN: Effectively, I feel, from what the legal professional normal stated, he sought to depoliticize this investigation.
Clearly, profession professionals are doing it, and to have a particular counsel overseeing it. However, you understand, the correct wing by no means fails. Up is down, and down is up. The trouble to depoliticize, they're now criticizing as one way or the other a political measure.
So, the hassle to segregate the investigation from the legal professional normal himself is within the eye of the beholder. And, in fact, the previous president is saying he will not partake, as if, you understand, it is a -- it is a slice of pizza. I imply, it is lower than him. He's being investigated for these offenses. And we'll see what they discover.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You sit on the Judiciary Committee. You simply heard Rod Rosenstein say that he thinks the U.S. legal professional in Delaware is enough by way of having the ability to independently determine on what to do with Hunter Biden and that case.
I'm wondering for those who agree with that, or for those who suppose your Republican colleagues are proper to ask for a particular counsel to cope with the present president's son?
REPRESENTATIVE ZOE LOFGREN: Effectively, I do not know something about that case. Actually, within the case of the...
MARGARET BRENNAN: However you might have oversight of the Justice Division.
REPRESENTATIVE ZOE LOFGREN: Sure.
Sure, however we do not -- I served with Mike Pence on the Judiciary Committee. We do not oversee and intervene with particular person investigations and circumstances. That will be improper by way of oversight.
You recognize, if -- if the president's son has dedicated offenses, then there will be a judgment on whether or not to prosecute or not. And that is the rule of regulation, simply because the rule of regulation applies to the previous president. Individuals on this nation have to stick to the regulation. And, for those who do not, for those who commit an offense, and the information are there, then there will be a prosecution.
And that is what it is about, residing in a rustic the place the rule of regulation, not simply politics, leads us.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Proper.
REPRESENTATIVE ZOE LOFGREN: That is about our democratic republic.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Effectively, the problem of what to do with Hunter Biden will come earlier than your committee because the chair...
REPRESENTATIVE ZOE LOFGREN: No.
MARGARET BRENNAN: ... the incoming chair of it has stated, together with the pinnacle of Oversight. They need to lead investigations.
REPRESENTATIVE ZOE LOFGREN: Effectively...
(CROSSTALK)
REPRESENTATIVE ZOE LOFGREN: ... they are going to discover...
MARGARET BRENNAN: Proper. So...
REPRESENTATIVE ZOE LOFGREN: There's nothing for us -- there is not any position for the legislative physique in a prosecution, not...
(CROSSTALK)
MARGARET BRENNAN: No. Understood.
However are you ready, as Democrats, for this knife combat?
REPRESENTATIVE ZOE LOFGREN: Effectively, I imply, we will be there.
And the incoming Judiciary Committee chair has a historical past of taking part in a little bit and free with the reality. We're conscious of that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
REPRESENTATIVE ZOE LOFGREN: And we can be there as truth-sayers.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We can be watching.
Congresswoman, thanks.
Face the Nation can be again in a minute.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: If you cannot watch the total Face the Nation, you may set your DVR or watch on our CBS Information Streaming Community all through the day on Sundays.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Welcome again to FACE THE NATION.
We additionally spoke with former Vice President Pence concerning the former president's entrance into the '24 presidential marketing campaign and the prospects for his personal run.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MIKE PENCE, (Former U.S. Vice President): I sit up for being concerned within the course of indirectly. You recognize, whether or not we're within the debate as a candidate or within the debate as merely as an lively Republican, I sit up for getting behind the Republican trigger and supporting candidates across the nation, in addition to our nominee to get this nation turned again to the insurance policies that can make us sturdy and affluent once more.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That sounds such as you'd favor he is not the nominee, however you did not say no.
MIKE PENCE: Effectively, I - I simply suppose there can be higher decisions. I feel now requires a special time. I feel now - I feel the American folks need to see us transfer ahead.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You discuss shifting ahead. The thought of relitigating the 2020 election continues to flow into, as you understand that, amongst members of your celebration. Do you suppose persevering with to push these claims, as the previous president does, is a direct risk?
MIKE PENCE: The 2020 election was not stolen. We've a course of on this nation the place states conduct elections. Questions of irregularities of fraud are then adjudicated within the courts. The states then certify electoral votes. And as we did on January sixth. However I do suppose there's been far an excessive amount of speak questioning the integrity of our elections.
MARGARET BRENNAN: In line with a CBS tally, there are going to be 156 members of Congress that can be sworn in, in January, who proceed to lift questions concerning the validity of the 2020 election. That is greater than again in 2020. Is not that a threat? Would not the celebration must cease that?
MIKE PENCE: There is a First Modification on this nation that folks can maintain the opinions that they maintain, even when I disagree with them. However I've each confidence that the brand new Republican management within the Congress, the brand new Republican majority, when Nancy Pelosi palms the gavel to Kevin McCarthy, goes to attract the teachings from the midterm marketing campaign, which for me give proof of the truth that -- that the American folks need the Republican Occasion, and albeit all of our leaders, to be targeted on the long run.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Did it shock you then that Republicans did not find yourself with a bigger margin?
MIKE PENCE: I used to be stunned. I used to be disenchanted on the end result of the election. As you go searching, what occurred on Election Day, candidates that have been targeted on the long run, candidates that have been targeted on the problems that the American individuals are targeted on, did fairly properly.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You are very happy with the Supreme Courtroom justices placed on the courtroom who only in the near past struck down Roe versus Wade. Do you suppose the choice on abortion entry ought to keep within the states or ought to there be a nationwide regulation banning it?
MIKE PENCE: From very early on in my public profession, I - I used to be decided to be a champion for all times. I simply all the time purposed to advance the sanctity of life. And I all the time believed that Roe v. Wade can be despatched to the ash heap of historical past. It is - you understand, it is fascinating that Ruth Bader Ginsburg even stated - who was one of many nice Supreme Courtroom justices of our time --
MARGARET BRENNAN: Effectively, she questioned the - the authorized foundation not being strong sufficient.
MIKE PENCE: She questioned the authorized basis of it, and - and she or he was proper.
MARGARET BRENNAN: However what -
MIKE PENCE: However from my perspective --
MARGARET BRENNAN: However is - however does not what you are speaking about, the ethical crucial -
MIKE PENCE: Sure.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Does that Trump states' rights?
MIKE PENCE: Effectively, the Dobbs determination actually gave the nation a brand new starting for all times. And it did return the query of abortion to the states and the American folks. Many alarmists on the American left at first spoke about it banning abortion and taking away their proper. And, really, I feel most Individuals found out fairly shortly that, the truth is, this query that bears so deeply on the - the lifetime of the nation has merely been returned to the folks and their elected representatives.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So no nationwide (INAUDIBLE).
MIKE PENCE: Individually, I -- I'll inform you that I'll all the time assist efforts to strengthen protections for the unborn. I feel it is most probably that will probably be resolved on the state degree. However the 15-week laws within the Congress, had I been a member of Congress, I - I might have supported as a result of I feel it really -
MARGARET BRENNAN: That is not too liberal for you as a result of it will enable entry as much as 15 weeks of being pregnant?
MIKE PENCE: Effectively -
MARGARET BRENNAN: That is the place nearly all of abortions are carried out.
MIKE PENCE: I might have supported it as a starting.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The Rubio/Graham invoice, the 15 weeks you are speaking about, additionally has exceptions for lifetime of the mom after the 15 weeks.
MIKE PENCE: Proper. I supported these exceptions throughout my public profession.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You do?
MIKE PENCE: However, Margaret, I do imagine it is extra possible that is going to be resolved on the state degree. It could take as lengthy to revive the sanctity of life to the middle of American regulation in all 50 states because it did to overturn Roe versus Wade. However those that know me and my household know that as long as we dwell, we'll search to be concerning the enterprise of life on this nation and doing our half to assist the sanctity of life.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I used to be - I used to be to learn that you simply and your spouse, Karen, underwent IVF remedy.
MIKE PENCE: We did.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Which is so much to undergo. And there are people who find themselves involved that for those who begin with abortion entry restrictions, that it'll additionally result in restrictions on IVF remedy. If you happen to imagine life begins at conception, you can also make that argument. Ought to or not it's protected for granted?
MIKE PENCE: Oh, I -- Karen and I struggled for greater than 5 years with unexplained infertility. And, the truth is, I will always remember the day that I known as residence, driving off to a piece appointment, and Karen answered the cellphone and stated, completely satisfied Father's Day. And our son would come alongside, then a daughter, then one other daughter, all inside three years. And we have been busy however joyful.
And within the midst of all of that, we - we additionally obtained phrase that we had -- we had made the listing for an adoption for a younger girl with an sudden being pregnant. However we needed to search out out if the second household on the listing was clinically infertile. And once we did, we stepped apart, not wanting to stop them from having the enjoyment of a little bit one of their residence.
However I totally assist fertility therapies and I feel they deserve the safety of the regulation.
MARGARET BRENNAN: What about same-sex marriage? Quite a lot of Republicans are getting on board, federal protections for it. Do you imagine that you could contemplate that once you discuss compassion?
MIKE PENCE: Effectively, as a - as a Bible-believing Christian, I will all the time maintain the view that marriage is between one man and one girl. I feel it was ordained by God. And that can all the time be my values. However the Supreme Courtroom of the US has dominated on this within the Obergefell case. And, you understand, we --
MARGARET BRENNAN: So you do not suppose a federal regulation is required like quite a few Republicans are actually --
MIKE PENCE: We will - we are able to disagree with Supreme Courtroom selections, however we will not disobey them. I respect the pronouncements of the courtroom. And I really suppose it is simply as necessary, as we go ahead as a nation, that we make it clear that we do not imagine in discrimination in opposition to anybody due to who they're, who they love or what they imagine.
However, on the identical time, I feel we have to guarantee that we defend the spiritual freedom of each American that is enshrined within the Structure, the flexibility to dwell, to work, to worship in a way accordingly that dictates to your acutely aware.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Our full interview might be seen on our web site at facethenation.com and on our YouTube web page.
We'll be proper again.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: This weekend there's uncertainty about Twitter's future beneath its new proprietor, Elon Musk.
For extra we're joined by tech journalist Kara Swisher, host of "On with Kara Swisher," and, from London, Scott Galloway, who's her co-host on the podcast "Pivot" and likewise a professor at NYU.
It is good to have you ever each right here.
Large weekend.
KARA SWISHER, (Host, "On with Kara Swisher" Podcast and Co-Host, "Pivot" Podcast): Sure.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Final evening Elon Musk, Kara, put Donald Trump, the previous president, again on Twitter.
KARA SWISHER: Sure.
MARGARET BRENNAN: He had been suspended after January sixth.
KARA SWISHER: Completely.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And he went and he based his personal social media firm, Reality Social. And in accordance with filings, he has a six-hour unique. He can solely put up there, not on Twitter.
KARA SWISHER: Sure.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So what does lifting the ban on his use of Twitter really do?
KARA SWISHER: Nothing. I imply he is been posting -- folks have been posting his - his Truths, I feel that is what they're known as, on Twitter already and it will get out anyway. So, he has - you understand, he is received these contractual obligations to this firm that's not doing nice. And I feel he cannot resist, and he'll in all probability go full Twitter in some unspecified time in the future. However I do not suppose it makes any distinction. Plus, he is the previous president, so it does not fairly -- hit fairly as laborious. So, I feel the juice is a little bit bit out of his energy on that platform. We'll see.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Effectively, he is additionally, Scott, a presidential candidate, as we discovered just some days in the past. He was kicked off of Fb, Instagram, YouTube after January sixth. Do you suppose this - this opens the floodgates, or is that this only a gimmick by Elon Musk for PR?
SCOTT GALLOWAY (Professor, New York College and Co-Host, "Pivot" Podcast): I feel it is largely the latter. I feel if Elon's out of the information for greater than 48 hours, he'll determine to kick him off once more. He stated that folks had spoken in Latin. I discovered that this ballot - you understand, Elon Musk's polls on Twitter are extra for assist than illumination. He ran an identical ballot to see whether or not or not he ought to promote Tesla inventory and it - it ended up he'd already filed to promote these shares. So, I feel these polls are largely a gimmick and I might argue the folks have not spoken, the GRU has spoken. These -- Twitter has turn out to be --
MARGARET BRENNAN: Russian intelligence, you imply?
SCOTT GALLOWAY: 100%. Twitter has turn out to be a playground for unhealthy actors and pretend bots. This ballot is meaningless. This determination is meaningless.
MARGARET BRENNAN: However you had predicted earlier that Twitter might collapse. Simply -- we have seen 1000's of staff both get fired or stroll off the job. Do you - do you stand by that?
SCOTT GALLOWAY: Effectively, Twitter will survive. And even when it does not, let's be mindful, it is not a nationwide treasure. We might all be simply nice if Twitter went away.
However I feel once you see this kind of wholesale firing and the best way during which he is gone about firing that creates such a resentment, I simply see this web site taking place. I - I feel we should always do a head of lettuce take a look at versus when the location goes down.
What we're not speaking about is the knock-on results at Tesla. You recognize, once you purchase a Tesla, you are shopping for a pair of Air Jordans. You are associating instantly with a person. And no particular person, perhaps apart from Trump or Putin, has eroded extra of their good will and model fairness than Elon Musk. And you then go to SpaceX, the place everybody who works for a authorities, and it is a authorities contractor, has a duty to termination (ph) type they must fill out. And I feel he is antagonized sufficient officers that we will begin seeing extra scrutiny on SpaceX contracts.
KARA SWISHER: Sure.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Effectively, I imply, there was already speak for nationwide safety functions -
KARA SWISHER: Sure.
MARGARET BRENNAN: To evaluation that due to international possession.
Kara, for - for customers at residence, what does this really imply? Like, what ought to we do to guard ourselves? Is there something to guard ourselves in opposition to?
KARA SWISHER: Effectively, you understand, collapsing -- Twitter used to go down on a regular basis with the fail whale. It was quite common. And so they're - you are going to see extra of that. I am already seeing points on the platform due to fewer folks. And that is - like, you may't obtain your archive very simply. If you happen to - for those who log off and you've got two-factor authentication, good luck getting on and stuff like that. You are going to see across the edges.
There could also be -- the issue is, if he begins pushing out large adjustments, you are going to see issues. If he begins doing plenty of issues, you are going to see issues. If one coder makes a mistake, you might see issues. And that is what it's.
What everybody's going to do, Margaret, I do know it is laborious for us media folks and politicians to know, but it surely's not very large anyplace else. It is a very small service in comparison with the Facebooks, the Instagrams and the TikToks of the world. And so I feel it is not going to matter to most individuals. It'll matter to the chattering class who enjoys dunking on one another all through the day, basically.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Effectively, I imply, it has turn out to be, in some methods, a information wire virtually --
KARA SWISHER: Sure.
MARGARET BRENNAN: For presidency bulletins, issues like that.
KARA SWISHER: Sure.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Scott, I additionally need to ask you about this gorgeous fall we noticed this week of - of the founding father of FTX, this cryptocurrency trade. Thirty-year-old billionaire Sam Bankman-Fried, prime Democratic donor. He is recognized on this city. Justice Division, SEC, CFTC are all now investigating. What precisely occurred right here?
SCOTT GALLOWAY: Effectively, on a really broad degree, we do not -- as a species, we will not assist however to worship folks. And within the U.S. we have determined to worship tech billionaires. And so they do not fall beneath the identical scrutiny, together with a 30-year-old MIT graduate who we're all hoping is sort of the subsequent Jesus and does not want a board of administrators or does not want any kind of regulatory scrutiny. And in consequence, in about 24 hours, you had the immolation of $34 billion in capital. And that's actually take a medium dimension metropolis and everybody in that metropolis on Tuesday has $10,000 and the subsequent day they've zero.
So, this may convey unwarranted scrutiny. It is extra spectacle than important as a result of your complete crypto market now could be $800 billion and Amazon has shed over $1 trillion. When the entire FTX debacle was unwinding, the markets have been really up. So it makes for fascinating information.
And in contrast to the good monetary recession the place we noticed big injury to the economic system and nobody go to jail, I feel that is going to be the alternative. I do not suppose it is going to have a really large influence on the economic system, however I feel you are going to see some perp walks right here.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Some arrests. I imply the Treasury secretary was requested by our Nancy Cordes about this, and she or he stated, the absence of applicable supervision and regulation of digital belongings contributed to the collapse.
KARA SWISHER: Sure.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I imply that is saying basically, we have been asleep on the wheel as a U.S. authorities.
KARA SWISHER: Effectively, that is early they usually - they have not performed a lot regulation on the common web. And that is 20 years therefore (ph) basically. And they also have been simply beginning to provide you with concepts between the SEC and the CTFC of the best way to regulate all these items. And Bankman-Fried was a part of it. He was consulted fairly a bit within the -- lots of people have been. And he was calling for regulation, for those who recall, which is considerably ironic. However there hadn't -- they hadn't found out the best way to cope with this very new and kind of explosive new monetary instrument. And I feel that is extra the issue is Washington strikes at a glacial tempo round these items. They have been shifting quicker than they've in different areas, however they definitely hadn't found out. However, finally, that is going to be, you understand, some kind of fraud case or one thing. Hear, I agree with Scott, somebody's going to jail.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Scott, there are additionally layoffs, not simply at Twitter however we noticed some at Fb, we noticed job cuts at Amazon. You've got known as this a Patagonia vest recession. What does that imply, precisely?
SCOTT GALLOWAY: Effectively, most recessions have been both labeled white or blue collar, that means that they sometimes influence one cohort greater than the opposite. Both executives, white shade or blue class, kind of the working class.
That is the Patagonia vest recession. And that's, we will see extra folks laid off within the growthy a part of our economic system that has kind of been the reward that retains on giving for 13 years. However once more, Margaret, I feel that is extra noise than information as a result of 99.99 % of the folks on the planet would pray to be lately laid off individual from Meta or Google. If you happen to've been lately laid off from considered one of these corporations, it signifies that you in all probability went to an elite faculty, you reside in a metropolis the place the expansion prospects or the economic system is rising like loopy, and you're -- your largest downside just isn't going to be what to do, however what to not do. So kind of a --
MARGARET BRENNAN: However what for those who're an H-1B visa recipient and also you get despatched again residence all of the sudden.
SCOTT GALLOWAY: Honest level.
KARA SWISHER: Honest level. I imply you noticed the image.
SCOTT GALLOWAY: That is a good level.
KARA SWISHER: You noticed that image from Twitter. I imply in every single place (ph). Elon put some -- one other performative picture op of them doing coding. I am unsure what they have been doing. However there have been folks there that have been clearly from different nations. And so they're caught there. They're sort of -- they can not depart. And I feel that is one of many points you are going to have for all these folks is, the place do they go?
Quite a lot of corporations are taking good care of it (ph). I feel Fb was considered one of them. Or Meta was doing that. So that they'll attempt to determine that out. However Scott's one hundred pc proper, these are individuals who have plenty of choices.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Sure.
KARA SWISHER: And there can be extra jobs for them comparatively. And I'll observe that Scott does himself have a Patagonia vest and he is doing simply nice. So --
SCOTT GALLOWAY: By no means. By no means.
KARA SWISHER: Sure, you do, I've seen it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: All proper, subsequent time you have to put on it, Scott.
Thanks. Good to see you. Scott's becoming a member of us there from London.
KARA SWISHER: Thanks.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And, Kara, good to have you ever right here in studio.
We'll be again with the mayor-elect of Los Angeles, Karen Bass.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We go now to Democratic Congresswoman Karen Bass, who made historical past final week when she turned the primary girl and the primary black girl to be elected mayor of Los Angeles.
Good morning to you.
REP. KAREN BASS (D-CA and Mayor-elect, Los Angeles): Good morning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You're going to be sworn in as mayor of L.A. December the twelfth. You've got received a whole lot of work reduce out for you.
KAREN BASS: Precisely.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And I do know you campaigned laborious on the -
KAREN: BASS: I definitely do.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You probably did, you campaigned laborious on the problem of crime and homelessness. And I need to get proper into that.
Murder's up 14 % from two years in the past. Robberies up virtually 16 % in L.A. over that very same time. Do you intend to maintain the present police chief?
KAREN BASS: Sure. There is no need on my half to take away the present police chief. You recognize, we've a disaster in our metropolis with homelessness as properly. Forty thousand individuals are asleep in tents all all through our metropolis. And 4 or 5 of them go away each morning. And so we've a number of crises proper now. And so it is my intent on day one to deal with that concern. And it is my understanding that the chief of police's contract is up on the finish of subsequent 12 months.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, you might revisit it at the moment, in different phrases.
However I -
KAREN BASS: Proper, revisit that, together with many different normal managers as properly.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Sure.
Once I ask about your strategy to policing, I am conscious that you simply're in a fairly distinctive place since you labored on this in Congress in placing ahead the George Floyd Policing Act. In your public security plan for L.A., you discuss hiring extra officers.
KAREN BASS: Sure.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And I do know previously you've got stated that defund the police was one of many worst slogans ever.
How do you convey all that to altering policing in L.A.? What particularly do you try this's totally different?
KAREN BASS: Effectively, initially, I feel what's most necessary about police reform, whether or not we're speaking in Los Angeles or anyplace else, is accountability and transparency. These are two issues which can be essential.
By way of hiring law enforcement officials, we have had a number of hundred law enforcement officials retire or transfer on for different causes. And what I'm proposing is that we exchange those that town has allotted for. In different phrases, bringing the police division as much as its full drive that's budgeted.
The opposite factor is, is that in lots of communities they need to see an elevated police presence. And so I'm calling for shifting officers off of administrative obligation and placing them on the streets. That is the best way we are able to rent them as quickly as doable.
However, along with that, I imagine in clearly stopping crime when it happens, however doubling down and tripling down in communities the place crime prevention methods and totally different approaches are required. And I've labored on this for quite a few years. And so I need to totally fund applications to stop crime, to intervene, particularly with younger folks.
And one of many issues that our present chief of police stated is that he accounted for a spike in crime, particularly post-restrictions of the pandemic, as a result of most of the crime prevention applications shut down attributable to Covid.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You disclosed again in September that - that you simply your self have been a sufferer of housebreaking at your house. And also you had two weapons stolen at the moment. And I'm wondering, did you might have these weapons since you felt unsafe in your individual residence? And did you exit and buy new weapons?
KAREN BASS: I've not bought new weapons. I had two handguns. I had owned them for a really, very, very very long time. And I definitely imagine in a person's proper to legally possess weapons and correctly retailer them. Mine have been legally bought and correctly saved.
MARGARET BRENNAN: However you would not encourage folks to really feel that they must arm themselves to defend their very own properties?
KAREN BASS: I - I definitely hope - and, you understand, one of many issues that occurred within the pandemic, not simply in Los Angeles, however all throughout the nation, was a rise in gun buying.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Sure.
KAREN BASS: One of many explanation why we have had a rise in crime in Los Angeles is due to ghost weapons. And ghost weapons completely should be cracked down on. And that is one thing that can be a spotlight of mine as properly.
MARGARET BRENNAN: What's the long-term resolution to the homelessness and housing disaster? As a result of housing affordability is a reasonably large downside in Los Angeles.
KAREN BASS: Completely proper. Los Angeles has turn out to be unaffordable. You must have a complete strategy. There is no magic bullet. So, in the beginning, it's a must to forestall folks from falling into homelessness. And clearly affordability is essential to that.
However, you understand, individuals are on the streets for quite a lot of points. And it's a must to tackle why they're there. Is it substance abuse? Is it psychological sickness? Is it simply straight-up affordability? We've people who find themselves in tents who really work full-time. We've 1000's of youngsters who're in tents, some with moms who fled home violence, some who're youngsters who aged out of foster care, some individuals who have been previously incarcerated as a result of they don't seem to be capable of finding housing are in tents. So, we've to have a complete strategy and tackle the explanation why individuals are unhoused.
However, in the beginning, we've to get folks off the streets. Persons are actually dying on the streets in Los Angeles. And this has received to cease.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Effectively, we can be watching, Mayor-elect, the way you just do that. It is a - it is a tall order.
Thanks for becoming a member of us this morning.
And we can be proper again.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: That is it for us right this moment. Thanks all for watching. Till subsequent week, for FACE THE NATION, I am Margaret Brennan.