The next is a transcript of an interview with Fiona Hill, the previous senior director for European and Russian affairs on the Nationwide Safety Council through the Trump administration, that aired Sunday, April 3, 2022, on "Face the Nation."
MARGARET BRENNAN: We flip now to former Nationwide Safety Council senior director for European and Russian affairs, Fiona Hill. She's additionally the writer of There Is Nothing For You Right here. Glad to have you ever again with us.
DR. FIONA HILL: Thanks, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: It was extraordinary to have this dialog with President Zelensky, notably at this second as these pictures emerge of what has occurred, the devastation in and round Kiev. He is speaking about looting, the reviews of mass rape, mass graves. Is that this how the Russian navy all the time behaves?
DR. HILL: Effectively, that is clearly not a particular navy operation, is it? Once we see all of those pictures and sadly, it is following a sample that goes again traditionally. I imply, look, lots of this wasn't talked about a lot after World Struggle Two, however when the Pink Military moved into Berlin, there was mass rape of of German ladies within the metropolis. And clearly, within the wake of World Struggle Two, Individuals did not actually wish to discuss that a lot given all of the atrocities that have been dedicated by German forces and the Nazis. We have got these reviews of-of looting in different settings as properly, in Chechnya, additionally in Georgia, when the Russian navy moved in in 2008, there was lots of wanton destruction of Georgian tools, reviews of like deliberate defecation on the tools, you recognize, for instance, I imply, virtually like silly stuff that was principally meant to indicate unbelievable disrespect. However look, we see in lots of wartime situations right through historical past, these sorts of reviews. However this was genuinely a particular navy operation to liberate a fraternal nation from what Putin was describing as Nazis, you wouldn't count on this type of conduct both it is a full breakdown of command and management, or it is really being sanctioned ultimately to show Ukrainians a lesson. Both means, that is really fairly disastrous and clearly requires some form of severe response within the worldwide neighborhood.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You already know, the USA anticipated Russia to launch a whole digital warfare blackout in Ukraine after they did this. They have not. And actually, certainly one of President Zelenskyy's strongest instruments is his skill to proceed to speak in the midst of this and to indicate these pictures to the world. Was this a giant strategic failure by Vladimir Putin? I imply, why is he permitting this?
DR. HILL: Effectively, it is a actually good query, is not it? I imply, is it as a result of they really proved to not have the capability? Is it that the Ukrainians are pushing again? As a result of there's lots of very technically savvy Ukrainians, lots of firms. There's clearly lots of help that they are getting from the skin world. I imply, we have heard, you recognize, help from Elon Musk, for instance. A whole lot of it is coming from people, not simply from governments. However there's been lots of strategic blunders by the Russian authorities on this marketing campaign. Clearly, there's a lot of issues that they did not count on. To begin with, that the marketing campaign has gone on for much longer. Second, they have not been in a position to decapitate the Ukrainian authorities. They have not taken Kiev. We have seen as a substitute that they've simply principally wreaked havoc and carnage everywhere, that they are participating in acts not simply of what look like conflict crimes, which we're now within the means of documenting, however of wanton destruction and, you recognize, this-this loopy looting that you just're seeing going down. I imply, that is actually, I feel, elevating lots of questions on this a lot vaunted Russian navy that all of us really anticipated to carry out in a a lot better trend throughout the board. And clearly, if the data has not been filtering as much as Vladimir Putin, as we have been listening to from his commanders, this should be one thing of a shock to the system for him as properly, which really then raises lots of questions on what's he going to do subsequent?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Why is Vladimir Putin so involved with the Donbass area, the japanese area?
DR. HILL: Effectively, that is the place that he first bought a grip on in 2014 after annexing Crimea. I imply, we all know that in 2014 that the Russian authorities, Putin specifically, had larger ambitions. He talked about this distant area of Novorossiya, which extends from the Donbass area, right through all of those port cities on the Sea of Azov that we have seen fully devastated. Melitopol, Mariupol, Berdyansk, for instance, to Kherson one other of the cities that they've seized. After which all the way in which all the way down to Odessa the place we're getting reviews now that they are combating, or reasonably beginning to shell Odessa and elevating the query of combating. It is a complete space that was seized by the Russian empire below Catherine the Nice. Putin's talked about it repeatedly. And for him, this zone now of southern Ukraine alongside the Black Sea, throughout the highest of the Crimean peninsula, the Sea of Azov, extending to Donbass, appears to be the realm that he is eager to guarantee that he has a maintain of it doesn't matter what.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I wish to put up a map right here as a result of, you recognize, we preserve listening to that a lot of the world is choosing a aspect on this battle towards Russia. However really, it is actually simply Europe. It is the Americas. It is the West. Japan. Is the world really actually lining up towards him or does he have fairly a lifeline nonetheless?
DR. HILL: Effectively, he does nonetheless have a lifeline. That is what's actually problematic. I imply, the one factor that we've to be very cautious about now, I imply, I do know that President Zelenskyy is actually making an enormous attraction for extra assist from the USA, from the West, from NATO, and from different allies, the European Union. However we actually have to get different worldwide actors--
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-Hmm.
DR. HILL: --to step up. We have had Japan and South Korea, for instance. There's been protestations concerning the battle within the United Nations Basic Meeting from international locations like Ghana and Kenya--
MARGARET BRENNAN: Proper.
DR. HILL: --However there must be extra as a result of Russia desires to painting this as a proxy conflict between the USA and Russia for Ukraine. That's not what that is.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I wish to discuss that on the opposite aspect of this break. Stick with us, Fiona Hill. We'll must take this fast break. Stick with us.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Welcome again to FACE THE NATION. We wish to proceed our dialog with Fiona Hill, former high adviser on Russia on the Nationwide Safety Council through the Trump administration. You already know, Fiona, that is actually these two personalities, Volodymyr Zelensky and Vladimir Putin. And it is all about making an attempt to alter Putin's thoughts. At this level, is there any succession plan if he's now not operating Russia?
DR. HILL: Effectively, there's all the time a succession plan, not less than in concept, which is, you recognize, if one thing occurs to him usually, then both the prime minister or the speaker of the Russian parliament would step in and they might have elections. Now, below this present circumstance, there was simply completely no means that Vladimir Putin desires to loosen his grip on energy. 2024 he is imagined to have a presidential election. In concept, as we all know, he is bought two extra presidential phrases that he can contest, and that might take him till 2036. And Putin has, if something, some endurance. He is just about decided to remain in place. And there's completely no means that he would wish to exit on the again in any means on the again of a catastrophe in Ukraine.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So that is in some methods solidifying his maintain on energy reasonably than weakening it?
DR. HILL: Completely, from his perspective. Now it does not imply to say, in fact, that that maintain is totally consolidated. It's extremely brittle. The state of affairs proper now, so many issues can go unsuitable. So many issues might be occurring behind the scenes that we really do not find out about. However for Putin himself, absolutely the final thing he desires to do is exit within the backdrop of protests, backdrop of a failed conflict as different earlier leaders in Russian historical past have. And there is no means that he'll entertain any form of thought of a palace coup. He is aware of the historical past. He is aware of how these items work. And the rapid group of individuals round him who helped plot this conflict are additionally going to rise and fall with him. So you'll be able to make certain that they're making an attempt to root out any form of dissent, any form of opposition at this second. And likewise on the favored degree, I imply, we're listening to in public opinion polls that there is lots of assist for Putin. I imply, it is arduous to, you recognize, form of actually gauge, once more, how deep that assist is. Persons are rallying across the flag, rallying round him, rallying across the Kremlin. And he is going to ensure, in fact, that any form of alternate views are fully and completely suppressed at this second.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You've got written extensively about Putin. I do know President Biden has learn your ebook on him. One of many stuff you write about is what's occurred previously with ceasefire agreements in Chechnya. And that is why I requested about safety ensures with President Zelenskyy. Prior to now, Russia has torn up peace agreements. Simply re-invaded. Is that what Vladimir Zelenskyy is now? The chance--
DR. HILL: Sure--
MARGARET BRENNAN: Of that?
DR. HILL: I imply, he must be very severe about this. And where- as he mentioned, they're fed up now on the Ukrainian aspect with paper agreements. They must have one thing actual and concrete, and that is going to be what is going on to be troublesome, as a result of it could possibly't simply be from the USA both. The earlier settlement, the Budapest settlement, was with the USA, the UK and Russia. And clearly that was in 1994 when Ukraine gave up its strategic nuclear weapons. That turned fairly meaningless. And so what Zelenskyy is on the lookout for, clearly, as you mentioned, is a few fairly concrete ensures from a spread of nations. He talked that- about the- the circle of nations that could be concerned, and it must be outdoors of Europe as properly.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-Hmm.
DR. HILL: That is a part of the issue.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Proper.
DR. HILL: As Putin is making this a proxy conflict, he is saying to everybody else, that is just like the Chilly Struggle. That is like Korea or Vietnam. This isn't the case. Putin has determined to invade a neighboring nation. It is a post-imperial--
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-Hmm.
DR. HILL: --land seize. It is primarily based on historical past, his grievances, his view of Russia's place in Europe. And principally it must be addressed in a world context. In order that they want huge ranging worldwide safety ensures.
MARGARET BRENNAN: It's a world downside now--
DR. HILL: It's.
MARGARET BRENNAN: --Fiona Hill, thanks in your evaluation.