The next is a transcript of an interview with CBS Information nationwide safety correspondent David Martin and former Appearing CIA Director Michael Morell that aired Sunday, March 27, 2022, on "Face the Nation."
JOHN DICKERSON: For an in depth breakdown of the place the struggle in Ukraine stands in the meanwhile and the place it would go subsequent we would wish to welcome CBS Information nationwide safety correspondent David Martin and Michael Morell, former appearing and deputy director of the CIA and a nationwide safety contributor right here at CBS. Good morning to you each. Thanks for being right here. David, I wish to begin with you. The place are we on this invasion on the finish of this week?
CBS NEWS NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT DAVID MARTIN: Nicely, we have heard what the Russian Ministry of Protection have stated about prioritizing jap Ukraine. It's important to think about the supply there, they have not been a stellar supply of fact. However on the bottom, they're seeing some proof that the items that the- the Russian items that have been advancing on Kyiv have began to dig in to defensive positions, mainly hunker down towards all these Ukrainian counterattacks. And on the similar time, there's an elevated degree of bombing in jap Ukraine. Now, that doesn't imply that Vladimir Putin has given up on taking the capital of Kyiv. What I feel it means is, they have to discover a battle plan that works. Their unique battle plan of advancing on these a number of fronts, north, east and south simply did not work. So possibly they will attempt one entrance at a time right here. However on the similar time that they're supposedly prioritizing, they're additionally sending in reinforcements for the primary time into Ukraine and they're maintaining this bombardment of the cities. Look, we- we started this battle by overestimating the Russians. We should not underestimate them now.
JOHN DICKERSON: Proper, Mike, decide up on that. Stalled, possibly simply to reload?
CBS NEWS NATIONAL SECURITY CONTRIBUTOR MICHAEL MORELL: So part one for me was the blitzkrieg proper to Kyiv and changing the federal government with a puppet authorities and Ukraine turns into a vassal state. The Russians misplaced part one. We at the moment are in part two, for my part. And part two is digging in defensively, as David stated, fortifying so that you simply defend your self from these Ukrainian assaults.They're really laying- the- the Russians are laying mines, which is a defensive maneuver. And so they wish to be in these fortifications in order that they will lob their mortars and their rockets and their missiles at Ukrainian cities in an try to interrupt the Ukrainian will, so- in order that I feel they will proceed to advance. That is what they're attempting to do now. And as David stated, do not underestimate them, proper?
JOHN DICKERSON: David, is there any reassessment from the Pentagon and even the Russians that the Ukrainians have put up extra of a struggle than they advised? As you- as you talked about, they're digging in as a result of the Ukrainians have had these counteroffensive. Is there any approach that the- that the NATO allies and others who're attempting to assist the Ukrainians can reap the benefits of this new place from the Russians?
CBS NEWS NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT DAVID MARTIN: Nicely, to start with, I feel everyone underestimated each the desire and the ability of the Ukrainians. They've taken these weapons, these anti-tank weapons, these antiaircraft weapons, and they're merely making higher use of their methods than the Russians are making of theirs. They're outclassing them on the battlefield. However there is a second battle happening right here, which is the assaults on the cities, what Mike talked about about attempting to interrupt the desire of the Ukrainian folks. And it is really- the end result could nicely rely on- on which occurs first, whether or not the Ukrainians power the Russians right into a flat out stall on the battlefield, or whether or not these bombardments break the desire of the Ukrainian folks.
JOHN DICKERSON: So, Mike, what David is suggesting right here is it is Vladimir Putin's ache threshold- how excessive is that? Or is it the survival instincts of the Ukrainians? So what- how lengthy do you suppose this takes?
CBS NEWS NATIONAL SECURITY CONTRIBUTOR MICHAEL MORELL: So- so we must always not underestimate the willingness of Russia to simply accept ache. Proper? They've proven over their historical past that they're keen to simply accept quite a lot of ache to achieve a victory. Proper? The second Chechen battle, the fight part lasted ten months after which the insurgency part lasted eight years. In Syria, their assaults on cities in Syria took a very long time. In order that they're- they're keen to take the time right here in a approach that I do not suppose we perceive within the West.
JOHN DICKERSON: So in the event that they're keen to take a very long time, give me a way of among the pressures that places on this coalition that President Biden is attempting to point out.
CBS NEWS NATIONAL SECURITY CONTRIBUTOR MICHAEL MORELL: So everyone's dealing with stress, proper? So Putin's dealing with the stress of financial ache at dwelling. Lengthy strains, empty cabinets, seems like Eighties once more in Moscow. He is dealing with the ache of useless troopers coming dwelling. Russian moms don't love that. In order that's his ache. The Ukrainian ache is- is the loss of life and destruction of their nation. The Western ache is the sanctions. They can not do enterprise with Europe. You already know, I talked to quite a lot of corporations, each U.S. corporations and international corporations, and their query to me is, when- when are we going to have the ability to get again to doing enterprise right here? Proper? So there's that stress after which there's the stress of the prices to shoppers world wide by way of wheat costs, by way of power costs, proper? All people's dealing with stress right here.
JOHN DICKERSON: Which is why Biden's over there in Europe attempting to maintain issues collectively. David, President Zelenskyy has requested for NATO assist, for assist from anyone. Planes, tanks. Is he going to get it?
CBS NEWS NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT DAVID MARTIN: Nicely he isn't going to get the planes within the brief run. And that is a- simply mainly a danger reward calculation that NATO has made. They only do not consider the 20 Polish MiGs in an unsure state of restore are going to vary the tide of battles. So why run the danger of escalating if it is not going to make a distinction. Proper now, there aren't dogfights happening over Ukraine. There are too many floor to air missiles for any airplane to function safely. The Russians aren't actually coming into Ukrainian airspace. They're attacking with lengthy vary air launch cruise missiles from Russian territory and from Crimea. So the U.S. for now, is- is concentrated on these anti-tank and antiaircraft missiles, plus discovering some excessive altitude anti-aircraft missiles, which the Ukrainians know easy methods to function. We might give them ours, however they do not know easy methods to function these.
JOHN DICKERSON: Mike, I wish to ask you about President Biden's speech through which he stated that Vladimir Putin can't stay in energy. He additionally framed this battle as totalitarianism versus freedom. What did you make of these two remarks?
CBS NEWS NATIONAL SECURITY CONTRIBUTOR MICHAEL MORELL: So I feel his remark that Putin needed to go was an unforced error. It makes it- it strengthens Putin at dwelling, makes it troublesome for any home opposition to coalesce collectively. And no Russian citizen, none, desires to be instructed by the chief of Russia's principal enemy about what their management can seem like and never. The broader framing I fear about as nicely. I feel we must always body this narrowly, Russia out of Ukraine and impose a lot ache on this man that he by no means thinks about doing this once more. I feel framing it as democracy versus autocracy drives the Chinese language nearer to the Russians and makes it troublesome for a few of our personal allies who're autocrats to face with us.
JOHN DICKERSON: All proper, we will have to finish it there. Mike Morell, thanks a lot. David Martin, thanks for being with us. We'll be again in a second. Stick with us.