The next is a transcript of an interview with former nationwide safety adviser and retired Lieutenant Normal H.R. McMaster that aired Sunday, February 27, 2022, on "Face the Nation."
MARGARET BRENNAN: We now return to the struggle raging in Ukraine with former nationwide safety adviser H.R. McMaster, he is now on the Hoover Establishment at Stanford and with us this morning. Good to see you in particular person.
GEN. MCMASTER: Hey, good to see you Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So the president has made clear he doesn't wish to put america ready of going face to face with Russia. You will have Ukraine's president begging for a no fly zone for some sort of navy intervention. Is there any navy choice in need of going to World Battle Three right here?
GEN. MCMASTER: Properly, there may be, and that is continued help for the Ukrainians to defend themselves. They usually're doing an incredible job, clearly. However as you talked about simply within the query, the issue is Russia's management of the air, proper? It is very tough to reposition forces, to satisfy this a number of pronged offensive with what you name inside strains, the flexibility to maneuver throughout one after which defeat them intimately, which is what you'll wish to do when the Russians management the air. After which additionally the ocean as nicely. So I believe there's most likely a navy choice there to inform the Russians, 'Hey, you do not personal the Black Sea.' After which additionally, I believe, to open up business visitors once more, to alleviate humanitarian struggling in Ukraine, in addition to to maintain open the land routes popping out of Poland, Moldova and Romania. To resupply, I believe, the Ukrainians with weapons. And I believe that's- that is essential as nicely. I believe- I believe Putin obtained much more than he bargained for. He is in a really tough place. And I believe something we are able to do, clearly, financially, going after his worldwide prison enterprise with sanctions and so forth is essential. However the help for Ukraine's potential to defend themselves can also be essential.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Does that imply when Kiev falls, america ought to fund and arm an insurgency in sort of a Chilly Battle model proxy battle?
GEN. MCMASTER: Properly, I believe the Ukrainians are going to battle. And I believe what- what Putin did not perceive is that this is not an autocratic regime like his, proper? The place it's- it is conducive to decapitation. The Ukrainian individuals are combating for his or her freedom, they're combating for democracy, they're combating for each other and their sovereignty. And that simply would not go away if he is in a position to seize Kyiv. And I do not suppose, I do not suppose seizing Kiev is within the playing cards within the instant future–
MARGARET BRENNAN: –You do not?
GEN. MCMASTER: The following 72 hours, I believe, are going to be actually crucial. I believe what now we have to take a look at it. Whenever you have a look at the map, it is essential to take a look at the dimensions, Margaret. You recognize, and it is very easy to look good crossing the border in the beginning of an offensive, however you start to succeed in the culminating level the place you run out logistics provides, and your pressure will get extra diffuse, after which your provide strains are open to interdiction and so forth. And so I believe this multi-pronged assault that you simply present within the graphic, you recognize, it appears to be like good on the map, on- on a chart, nevertheless it's truly fairly tough to execute.
MARGARET BRENNAN: However we heard our personal David Martin lay out why which will sound reassuring, however additionally it is truly scary for civilians as a result of Russia might use much less exact weapons. We have now seen what Vladimir Putin is prepared to do in Syria. He backs a struggle prison who used chemical weapons. You heard the U.N. ambassador say that is not off the desk. He is threatening to probably lean into nuclear by saying he is elevating his menace degree. Is Vladimir Putin a rational actor at this level?
GEN. MCMASTER: I do not suppose he's- he is a rational actor as a result of he is fearful, proper? What he needs to do greater than something is restore Russia to nationwide greatness. He is pushed by that. He is additionally pushed by a want to stay in energy to at the very least 2036. And so I believe now he is aware of that each one of that's in danger, proper? That Russia, the Russian navy, would not look excellent proper now. He would not look very highly effective. And that is going to jeopardize his potential to remain in energy, you recognize, actual wages in Russia–
MARGARET BRENNAN: –Do you actually suppose that?
GEN. MCMASTER: –I actually suppose that Margaret–
MARGARET BRENNAN: Why do you suppose that there is truly an actual menace to him staying in energy? I imply, he humiliated his intelligence director on tv.
GEN. MCMASTER: Yeah nicely, that is that is an indication, is not it? I believe that is an indication when- when he needed to humiliate his intelligence director on tv, what does that imply? It means all people round him is telling him what he needs to listen to. He is residing in a bubble
MARGARET BRENNAN: So who might stand as much as him?
GEN. MCMASTER: Properly, I believe the Russian folks might stand as much as him now. The issue is that any- any of those, you recognize, the protests that we see, they're instantly put down. However it's value noting, Margaret, you recognize, there are extra folks in Russia's inside safety service than there are within the Russian navy at this second. What does that let you know about how safety is? There are extra political prisoners in Russia than there have been through the peak of the Chilly Battle? What does that let you know about how safety is? So I believe these totalitarian leaders, they will look, you recognize, they will look robust, however they're truly very brittle. And, you recognize, democracy as we have been, you recognize, self-flagellation for a number of years. I imply, as ugly as democracy is, democracies are literally fairly darn resilient. And also you see that with Ukrainians. And I hope the Ukrainians encourage confidence in all of us throughout the free world.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You recognize, I believe lots of people like to listen to the optimism right here, and it is sort of refreshing to listen to in that means. However then you definitely have a look at the worldwide system, you served within the Trump administration, there's numerous criticism of the worldwide system, and elements of it, whereas it might be revitalized, it does look a bit bit creaky. I imply, Russia is baked into the UN Safety Council constitution. They're vetoing–
GEN. MCMASTER: – completely–
MARGARET BRENNAN: –ethical outrage. They've a vote on this. They will use the worldwide system to their benefit. So- would not that nicely, basically trigger an issue?
GEN. MCMASTER: I imply, freedom's not straightforward, proper? And so now we have to-we must work onerous, I believe, to take care of the worldwide order that has benefited folks internationally. And it is in danger now as a result of clearly what Russia's doing. However how concerning the relationship with Russia and China, how they're aiding and abetting each other? I believe it is actually essential to take a look at that- on the, you recognize, on the joint assertion that was made simply earlier than the Olympics. And the decision for a brand new sort of worldwide relations. You recognize what meaning, Margaret, meaning rewriting the foundations in a means that cuts towards our pursuits and advantages the 2 authoritarian regimes which might be attempting to dominate the Eurasian landmass.
MARGARET BRENNAN:So do you- how do you interpret Xi Jinping, the president of China's name to Vladimir Putin, to induce him to barter a settlement? Does that say he thinks perhaps that is going too far? And is Xi Jinping the one one that can rein in Putin?
GEN. MCMASTER: He is not going to reign in Putin, and what he's- what he is doing, I believe, is creating the facade of perhaps being an advocate for peace, similar to he's- he is all the time been keep in mind –
MARGARET BRENNAN: –as a result of the White Home would say, 'Oh, look, China is afraid of secondary sanctions. Even China is now afraid of the world standing as much as Russia.'
GEN. MCMASTER: Properly, there may be afraid of secondary sanctions, and so they might- they may get them. I believe they deserve them truly for aiding and abetting Russia. What- what Russia, and David will be capable of speak extra about this than I can, however they have been attempting to insulate themselves proper, from- from financial sanctions and and so they're doing it in cooperation with each other, proper? He is attempting to scale back his vulnerability to the restrictions on- on his entry to the greenback financial system by shopping for yuan. China has- has pledged to purchase even increasingly oil and gasoline from Putin. And I believe what now we have to do subsequent, now we have to determine this out, Margaret, is now we have to sanction the hydrocarbon sector. I imply, now we have to do it. We have now to do every part we are able to perhaps to- to buffer the impact of that. However- however I believe Europe, Germany particularly has to appreciate they made a giant, huge mistake once they gave Russia coercive energy over their financial system. And so now we have to make main changes to the power infrastructure globally.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So I spoke to Kurt Volker, former envoy to Ukraine. He stated to me, when you will have a stability of forces, you will have energy. Each side have a purpose to settle by way of diplomacy. When it is just one facet imposing its will by pressure. Diplomacy is capitulation.
GEN. MCMASTER: It is completely proper.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So ought to Volodymyr Zelensky do something to barter at this level?
GEN. MCMASTER: Properly, I do not suppose he has to. I believe once more, this subsequent 72 hours are going to be actually essential. Russia's preliminary goals have been annoyed that the navy drawback will get more durable and more durable for them as they prolong their strains of communication provide strains. For those who have a look at the numbers of forces, you recognize, it appears to be like like rather a lot, you recognize, 160 thousand. OK, what about one third of that's fight troops. Now you divide it throughout 4 totally different axes. You recognize, it is fairly straightforward for that pressure to turn into dissipated and turn into absorbed into the huge territory of Ukraine, a rustic of 40 million those who occupies an area of Texas, proper? So I believe that that is an unimaginable navy drawback for him if his goal is to not solely take away Zelensky from energy, however then to regulate Ukraine. He will not be capable of management Ukraine.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Thanks very a lot. H.R. McMaster, we'll be again in a second.